Rank Insignia Pins(Star Trek Movies 2-6)?

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by James Wright, Mar 13, 2008.

  1. James Wright

    James Wright Commodore Commodore

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    Can someone show what the rank pins for the ranks of Commodore & Fleet Captain look like, can these 2 ranks be confused?

    JDW
     
  2. EnsignRicky

    EnsignRicky Commodore Commodore

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    You can try this site, they have an excellent and extensive collection of insignias, rank pins and a ton of other very cool stuff. You may find what your looking for there; Look under logos.

    http://www.lcars-interface.de/
     
  3. Tibbetts

    Tibbetts Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Also, you might try Kuro-RPG. He has a section of ranks for the movie era.


    -Tibbetts
     
  4. James Wright

    James Wright Commodore Commodore

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    I know that there was an offical or canom rank pin made for the rank of Commodore, was the rank pin insignia of Fleet Captain canon?

    JDW
     
  5. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Heck, even the rank of Fleet Captain isn't canon.

    Bob Fletcher never designed a pin to go between Captain and Commodore. (He also originally forgot to design a pin to go between Lieutenant and Commander, but rectified that for the later movies, leading to some confusion as fans had designed a version of Lieutenant Commander on their own.) In fact, no rank marker system in onscreen Star Trek has featured a marker for a rank between Captain and Commodore.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  6. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    Not entirely correct. Both Garth of Izar and Christopher Pike were awarded the rank of Fleet Captain, but neither wore a Starfleet uniform that would show what that rank looked like. Unofficially, the braid for Fleet Captain in TOS was three solid stripes, IIRC.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2008
  7. James Wright

    James Wright Commodore Commodore

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    I can find most of the movie rank pins on ebay, the only one I can't find is the pin that represents the rank of Commodore, does anybody have one just to show?

    JDW
     
  8. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    Who is John Galt?
  9. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yet Garth of Izar was only ever addressed as "captain" or "starship fleet captain", never as "fleet captain". And dramatically, this "starship fleet captain" in each case basically meant "captain like Kirk", "captain from the starship fleet" - it wasn't an honorific, it was a demand for Garth to live up to the reputation of captains from the starship fleet.

    And there is no particular reason to think that Pike's rank would have differed from Kirk's, other than Mendez calling it "fleet captain" rather than plain "captain". Could be short for "starship fleet captain" again, really.

    Since no Trek rank system from any era has featured a pin for a rank that would correspond to this putative Fleet Captain (indeed, the TNG era system not only omits such a rank, but also seems to omit Commodore!), I say we should take any excuse for interpreting the TOS terminology as not indicating the existence of such a rank. And I frankly believe the writers of "Whom Gods Destroy" never intended for such a rank to exist. Although the writers of "The Menagerie" might have...

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  10. EliyahuQeoni

    EliyahuQeoni Commodore Commodore

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    ^^
    Except that Kirk mentions having been there when Pike was promoted to Fleet Captain. And it would seem natural for a Fleet Captain to be referred to simply as "Captain" much the same way a Rear-Admiral is addressed as "Admiral."
     
  11. Ríu ríu chíu

    Ríu ríu chíu Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I always assumed that Fleet Captain and Commodore were in fact the same rank. I don't really see any reason not to.

    I mean, in a modern spacegoing fleet such as this one, there's really no reason to have more ranks than absolutely necessary; in fact, with technology being what it is, and offering easy means for personnel to communicate and issue orders instantly, there would probably be *fewer* ranks, not more.

    As for onscreen rank insignia pins: None were ever used for either rank. The closest we got was the TOS uniforms, which used a single thick stripe (with stylized borders) for a Commodore. (No Fleet Captain was ever seen in uniform in TOS.)
     
  12. James Wright

    James Wright Commodore Commodore

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    I guess the Commodore rank pin is pretty rare since ebay hasn't shown one for sale since I've been looking at these pins for some time!?
    Some sellers on ebay say that the rank pin for Fleet Captain is the rank pin for Commodore.

    JDW
     
  13. James Wright

    James Wright Commodore Commodore

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    Why were there 2 rank pins on the jackets in movies 2 thru 6?

    JDW
     
  14. Intelligence

    Intelligence Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Because having the rank insignia only on the sleeve makes it harder for other crewpeople to recognise the other's rank. However most stupidly all enlisted crew just has the mark on the sleeve ...

    I further recommend you have a look at the 2278-2350 section at http://www.st-spike.org/
     
  15. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Which still doesn't mean this should be different from Captain Kirk's rank. Because as you say,

    That is, all the starship commanders with |:| on their sleeve, >(|||)< on their shoulder, or oooo on their collar could have held the rank that can be referred to as Fleet Captain, but usually is said to be Captain for short.

    After all, the word "captain" alone is a source for confusion, since it can refer to civilian commanders of ships, and to Starfleet personnel of varying ranks in command of a ship. In the worst case, it also refers to a fairly low-ranking officer in whatever organization Colonel West served.

    Starfleet might thus have decided to refer to its O-6 -ranked people as Fleet Captain for clarity, but of course such nonsense wouldn't take with the rank and file who'd continue to use the shorter, confusing form...

    And one wonders why the pin is on the officer sleeve in the first place. Collars and shoulder straps and epaulets are nearly at eye level and relatively easy to see, so a small insignia is excusable there, whether it be the striped epaulet of TMP, the pins of ST2-6, or the pips of TNG. But sleeves are at constant motion, far away from the eyes, often obstructed by other body parts or by items held. An all-around identifier like cuff braid is warranted there, not a tiny pin on one side.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  16. EliyahuQeoni

    EliyahuQeoni Commodore Commodore

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    While this is certainly possible, I don't see it as all that likely. We never hear of Kirk, Picard or any other Starship captain being referred to as "Fleet Captain" even during formal situations when their full rank would be used.

    And are you suggesting that Kirk was present when Pike was promoted from Commander to Captain? That seems even less likely.
     
  17. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Why, yes, that's exactly what I think the line meant.

    After all, Mendez was associating that situation with a timeframe where Pike was "the same age as Kirk". Clearly the two weren't born anywhere near the same time, so Mendez must be saying that Pike at some moment X was the same age that Kirk is now. It would be supremely logical for that moment to be the promotion ceremony that Kirk just mentioned in the previous phrase. And it would be very odd for it to be anything else.

    It would also be logical the careers of Pike and Kirk to be synched: Cadet Kirk sees young Commander Pike promoted to (Fleet) Captain, then matures himself and gets promoted from Commander to (Fleet) Captain at the equivalent age, just a few years before Mendez' comment.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  18. Ríu ríu chíu

    Ríu ríu chíu Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I never thought about it that way: "Fleet Captain" could be a more formalized way to refer to a Starfleet naval Captain (an O-6). That's an excellent idea. Distinguishing it from an O-3 Captain in the MACOS/Starfleet Marines/whatever.

    (On the other hand, the O-3 Captain rank could have been the one that's changed. The Marines - sorry, Lancers - in Andromeda use the phrase 'Brevet Major' instead of it.)
     
  19. EliyahuQeoni

    EliyahuQeoni Commodore Commodore

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    I ran across this page recently that has a comparison of the rank pins designed by Robert Fletcher for TWOK and other variations from different sources (The Okuda Encyclopedia, DC Comics, FASA, et al.) From this it would appear that there was no Fleet Captain rank pin designed for the movies, though other sources have created one.

    Rank Comparison Chart
     
  20. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    ^^^ Cool link! I had no idea how horribly "off" the Starfleet Command video game ranks were.