Questions for Bring Back Janeway Panel

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by Kirsten Beyer, Jul 7, 2011.

  1. Tidus79001

    Tidus79001 Lieutenant Commander

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    BillJ I am not subveting anyone's words & from your reply it seems as if you are trying to subvert & twist my words.

    Your logic works too ways. Let’s explore how shall we? How isn’t it jerking readers around by replacing Janeway with a faceless replacement & when the majority of the readers want her returned we are told to get used to the changes?

     
  2. Tidus79001

    Tidus79001 Lieutenant Commander

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    BillJ I am not subveting anyone's words & from your reply it seems as if you are trying to subvert & twist my words.

    Your logic works too ways. Let’s explore how shall we? How isn’t it jerking readers around by replacing Janeway with a faceless replacement & when the majority of the readers want her returned we are told to get used to the changes?

    Actually you exactly said:
    Hmmm, that doesn’t sound like:

    Oh sorry to point that you are backpedaling & your trying to change what you actually said about dropping the relaunch like a hot potato if you even got a whiff of Janeway coming back & and maybe still even with Beyer if you get some implausible resurrection.

    *OH, SNAP!* :guffaw:
    Kimc I never attacked anyone. It is BillJ who replied to my post saying that it was BS, then in a subsequent post he accused me of trying to subvert the words of Kristen Beyer, and called me petty.
    Yeah that would be your side. I haven't made any attack on you at all & you have made 3 attacks on me as I pointed out above in my reply to Kimc. It is you who keeps making angry attacks personal attacks at me. Sorry BillJ I don't back down to bullies. All that I can say about your attacks on me is that when people start to attack you know you are being effective!
     
  3. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    I called bullshit on this remark:

    If this isn't your remark then I apologize, if it is yours then it is bullshit.

    If you call those attacks then your far more thin-skinned than I originally gave you credit for. :shrug:

    There is no contradiction in my thoughts on whether Janeway comes back or not. Kirsten Beyer is one of the few authors that actually get Janeway, even with that I won't accept the Q snap their fingers and everything goes back to normal. Just like I was disappointed with Spock's return and Kirk's return in the novels. There is no good way to turn back death. I'm not one to be so mesmerized by a fictional character that I throw all logic out the window. And I'll always know in the back of my mind that I was cheated out of new dynamics and new character growth to satisfy a few people. I like the fact that Voyager like the Enterprise now feels like a ship with a 'living' history. YMMV.
     
  4. Tidus79001

    Tidus79001 Lieutenant Commander

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    Last edited: Jul 16, 2011
  5. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    :guffaw:
     
  6. Tidus79001

    Tidus79001 Lieutenant Commander

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    *Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz* Wow that was creative. Nothing witty to say? *Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz* Still asleep here *Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz*:guffaw:
     
  7. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    Sometimes you just have to bow to the absurdity of a given situation. :techman:
     
  8. Tidus79001

    Tidus79001 Lieutenant Commander

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    I have nothing personal against you BillJ. I think we will just have to agree to disagree on the topic/issue of the return of Janeway. *Peace man* :techman:
     
  9. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    It's all in good fun. :techman:

    We all could probably come up with a plan to cure world hunger with all the time we've spent arguing over Janeway. :lol:
     
  10. Tidus79001

    Tidus79001 Lieutenant Commander

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    :lol: "The Return of Janway" :lol: it sounds like a title for a 1950's b creature feature/horror movie.

    Maybe it could be another Captain Proton adventure :)
     
  11. Lord Manitou

    Lord Manitou Commander Red Shirt

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    Star Trek started as a science fiction show case and the entire franchise is no less now. Killing off Janeway is always and ultimately a bad show. Character actors are killed off at regular intervals when their timeline has finally ended or their added color and significance can no longer contribute. I enjoy your novels for they are a good representation of the Voyager series and I've learned to refresh myself with another experiment that may yet prove to be more than that--an experiment.
     
  12. Kestrel

    Kestrel Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Kirsten, I wanted to say I really, really appreciate you sharing your thoughts on how Spock's death (and return) affected you. I don't know if you're familiar with Bridge to Terabithia, but reading that book when I was a kid had a similar affect on me, except without the disappointment of ST:3. And with I think more rage and tears.

    I think you misunderstand what "jerking readers around" means, because sticking with the course of the stories you've decided to tell (the aftermath of Janeway's death and the way her memory affects her friends and people she never met) doesn't qualify.
     
  13. Kirsten Beyer

    Kirsten Beyer Writer Red Shirt

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    And we're back...picking up now with some new poster's questions...

    Thank you for the vote of confidence. The reality is that fan reactions do not determine the content of our stories, and that holds true for both sides of this conversation. You may feel that Pocket isn't listening to you. Pocket is listening to you. I am listening to you. And I am listening to the Voyager fans who like the new direction and may or may not have strong feelings one way or another about Janeway returning to the books. While I'm sure that your preference would be that I only listen to you, I don't have that luxury. It is precisely because there are so many differing opinions every time a major change is made to a story like this, that those opinions cannot be a factor in our thought process going forward. Again...I'm not just saying your opinion. I'm saying everyone's opinion on both sides.

    Everybody who is in a position to actually decide the content of a story has years of experience that is relevant to the work at hand. We trust our instincts and create the best stories we can, knowing that at times, some readers will not approve. It goes with the territory.

    What had concerned me for some time and caused me to begin this conversation as I have with the panel was the sentiment I've heard over and over again that no one is listening to the fans. I am here, listening. I've listened since before Full Circle was published and the reactions started coming fast and furious. Just because you have yet to see the story you'd like, that doesn't mean no one cares. It just means that for now, we're working in a different direction. As I've said repeatedly in these threads, that direction is malleable enough to accomodate lots of story possibilities.

    What I have never said, and never will say is that:

    Your opinion does not matter.
    You should buy the books even if you're not happy with the new direction.
    You should just get over it.

    Your opinion is yours and is valid. If the new direction does not appeal to you, you shouldn't support it or buy the books.

    KB
     
  14. Kirsten Beyer

    Kirsten Beyer Writer Red Shirt

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    I have to admit, I'm a litle confused by this question, but here goes.

    I'm not sure how we've been yanking chains and then hitting the reset button in the new novels. Though I completely agree with you that this was one of the most annoying things about the Voyager episodes that made flagrant use of the reset button, as well as the seeming lack of consequences week after week.

    Janeway's death had been established prior to Full Circle. If you are saying that Full Circle yanked chains by showing the consumation of Janeway and Chakotay's relationship, only to kill her a few pages later...that certainly wasn't the intent.

    Janeway's death was done (in Before Dishonor). In Full Circle I was given the chance to show several months of story that took place before her death, because that's the point at which the last relaunch novel had left off, so I took it. I asked myself what might logically have happened during that time to all of the characters...not just Janeway...and it seemed to me that based on my understanding of the series, as well as a few breadcrumbs I did think I saw in Christie's books, that at some point Janeway and Chakotay would frankly discuss their relationship now that their duty no longer prevented it from becoming something deeper. I feel like maybe you're saying I shouldn't have done that because I knew she was going to die so why put everyone through the extra pain of knowing what might have been between them. But when I'm writing, I'm not thinking like that. I have to ignore what I know of the future to tell the present in the most honest way I can. I felt the conversation between Janeway and Chakotay that happened at Proxima station was long past due, so I wrote it the first opportunity I had. If you feel I was intentionally trying to deceive you there, I apologize, but that certainly wasn't my intent.

    As to your current feelings about the books, that's fine. You see what you see and it does not appeal to you. I'm sorry you feel that way.

    KB
     
  15. Kirsten Beyer

    Kirsten Beyer Writer Red Shirt

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    Hi Barbara...at last, we have a chance to talk...and by the way, I think your English is fabulous given that you're from Germany. If I spoke German, I'm sure mine would suck compared to your English.

    I think you're right that there has to be a good reason why the Q saved what they did of Janeway, and obviously that story hasn't been told yet. I can't tell you why right now but I can promise you that any story featuring Janeway's return would sure as hell answer that for you...or I wouldn't buy it either.:)

    Nope. Not even a little. You might look at some of the earlier questions in this thread for more of my thoughts on this, but that's the bottom line.

    This was actually one of the issues we discussed at some length in the panel at Shore Leave.

    I simply don't agree that Trek or Trek literature is sexist. I don't see it. I've looked a little at the math and here's what I see...

    Janeway...killed in Trek Lit but still alive in Trek Online continuity.
    Jadzia Dax...killed on the series because the actress wanted out of her contract and replaced by Ezri Dax, also a woman.
    Tasha Yar...killed on the series because the actress wanted out of her contract and then brought back in "Yesterday's Enterprise" as well as a number of times on screen and in the literature as Sela.
    Kes...evolved, used heavily in the String Theory trilogy, and replaced by another woman...Seven of Nine.

    Spock...killed on screen and brough back in the next movie.
    Kirk...killed on screen and brought back/still alive in the Shatnerverse continuity.
    Sisko...killed or taken by the Prophets depending on your opinion on screen and brough back by Trek Lit after 9 books in the series had explored events after his purported death.
    Trip...reported dead but never seen on screen and brought back in the first book that appeared after this.
    Data...killed onscreen and brought back in the comic books.

    I guess I don't see how the men you use as examples are faring significantly better than the women in Trek Lit. You also have to take into account that there are always more men in the various show's ensembles so more of them are going to have stuff happen to them. This has also made me wonder why so many of the female actresses on Trek seem to want to leave the series before they're done but the men really stay put. Maybe the women have better career opportunities after Trek than the men. I don't know.

    When you look at the big picture I see plenty of men and women in command positions, though on screen we always see more men than women in the main ensembles...and that does suck but is part of Hollywood. If you figure out how to fix that one, let me know. In Trek Lit, however, we've got so many women in postions of authority...Fleet Commander, Captain Afsarah Eden, leading the Voyager fleet, B'Elanna Torres, Fleet Chief Engineer, Seven of Nine, who has chosen never to accept a rank in Starfleet but is the first person anyone calls when there are Borg issues, including the President of the Federation. Personally, I think Seven has made the right choice. To join Starfleet now wouldn't be so much a promotion as a limit on her freedom as an individual. Nancy Conlon, Voyager's chief engineer. Captain Farkas of the Quirnial. Captain Glenn of the Galen. Captain Ezri Dax of the Aventine. President Bacco and her Chief of Staff, whose name eludes me at the moment. The Romulan President/Praetor, whatever they call her is a women...Captain or is it Admiral Shelby...while the men have Picard, Riker, Sisko, Martok...and...Calhoun?

    There are ways to limit the characters you want to include that can sway the numbers to support your preference, but overall, I don't see it. I think it's worth noting that all of this really boils down to killing Kathryn Janeway who was the most prominent female figure in filmed Trek and because it seems the men haven't received the same treatment, that must be evidence of sexism.

    I see the reverse. To give Janeway some sort of protected status because of her sex, to say that because she is such a prominent female character, we can't kill her, that's a kind of reverse discrimination that worries me. If we could...and obviously do...kill male characters, why do the women get a pass? If we're really all about IDIC and presenting a universe in which sexism is no longer an issue, then nobody can be special. And the last thing I think about when I'm looking at a person or a character's respective abilities is the configuration of their reproductive organs.

    I don't expect you to agree, but that's what I see.

    I think that taking Janeway away for 2 1/2 books when there are still 170+ hours of filmed Voyager and dozens of novels in which she is alive does not limit in any way her ability to function as an inspiration to women of all ages everywhere. I don't judge a person's capacity to inspire by when or how they died. I judge it by how they lived and though Janeway might continue to do more inspirational things were she still alive or to be brought back, I think her legacy is pretty safe.

    KB
     
  16. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Death doesn't stop true love, it just slows it down a little.
     
  17. forrie

    forrie Ensign Newbie

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    Kirsten,

    Here's one for consideration! :-)

    What if Kathryn Janeway is really a transsexual and that was her larger reasoning for distance from Chakotay. Only higher-ups in Starfleet and the Doctor knew.

    How about that? Poor Chakotay!

    (said tongue in cheek, for levity)

    Touching on the male/female tangent above, I don't think we see much in terms of the definition of and relativity of gender in Trek, other than simply Male or Female. I suspect any material of that nature would have been a big 'no no' years ago. But not today. For example, The Gatchaman (Battle of the Planets) (anime) had Zoltar, who clearly batted for both teams, but that part of the story was left out of the release in the US.

    I'm just saying.

    Now Kirsten, if you really want to spin people's heads on this one!

    ((GRIN))

    Okay, back to being serious....
     
  18. Tidus79001

    Tidus79001 Lieutenant Commander

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    Kristen you forgot to mention the female crew of the Starship Columbia NX-02, Captain Rachael Garrett of the USS Enterprise NCC-1701-C, and Janice Rand from Star Trek: The Original Series who was able to become much more than her original role of Yeoman to Captain Kirk. Janice Rand started out in what some would call the sexist role of Yeoman, later the she served as transport chief on the USS Enterprise refit, next she underwent officer training & was promoted to the rank of Ensign working at Starfleet Headquaters up to the point of the probe in Star Trek IV, and the last seen after having been promoted to the rank of Lieutenant serving in the position of communications officer on the USS Excelsior NCC-2000. Best scene in the Voyager episode “Flashback” which was intertwined with footage from Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country:

    Rand: You’re not going to have time to drink that, you know. You’re due on the bridge in five minutes.

    Tuvok: Its not for me -- it’s for the Captain. I have observed that Captain Sulu drinks a of cup of tea each morning. I thought he might enjoy a Vulcan blend.

    Rand: Oh, I see. Trying to make Lieutenant in your first month? I wish I’d have thought of that when I was your age. It took me three years just to make Ensign.

    Tuvok: I assure you I have no ulterior motive.

    Rand: Whatever you say, Ensign. See you on the bridge.

    *Rand leaves*
    *short pause*

    Janeway: (mock dejected) You’ve never brought me tea. (turns and walks away in a mock snub).

    Most of the crew of the Columbia NX-02 in the Enterprise books features women in key positions of authority. Here is a list if the female crew on Columbia NX-02:

    Captain Erika Hernandez
    First officer Commander Veronica Fletcher
    Chief Medical Officer Lieutenant Johanna Metzger
    Chief of Security/Tactical Officer Lieutenant Kiona Thayer
    Communications Officer Ensign Sidra Valerian
    Communications Officer Officer Ensign Oliviera
    Junior Tactical Officer Ensign Claudia Siguenza (2156)
    Junior Tactical Officer Ensign Diane Atlagic
    Junior Engineering Officer Ensign Katrin Gunnarsdottir
    Junior Engineering Officer Crewman Pierce

    I myself have really enjoyed the segments of the Enterprise “Romulan War” saga in the books that feature the Columbia NX-02. It would be nice however if they would devote a set of books to Columbia NX-02 ship & crew as they did to tell the backstory of the USS Enterprise NCC-1701-B under the command of Captain John Harriman, and USS Enterprise NCC-1701-C under the command of Captain Rachael Garrett. I have decided to create a new post & poll in the Enterprise sub-forum of the TrekBBS discussing Who else would like a set of books devoted to Columbia NX-02 & crew? To take the poll & post comments go here http://trekbbs.com/showthread.php?p=5103815#post5103815.

    When the book “Ships of the line” dangled the carrot in front of my face with the picture showing the Columbia NX-02 found crash landed on the surface of a planet in the Gamma Quadrant & the blurb of a description about its disappearance being one of the most enduring mysteries in Starfleet history really got me interested in that ship & its crew. I was really excited to read the Destiny Trilogy books that told the story of how the ship came to rest there.

    Kristen, the books Full Circle, Unworthy, and Children of the Storm equals three books. You can’t call it 2 1/2 books out of convenience with the intent of lessening that it has been 4 years & 3 book later since Janeway was killed off & it can’t be justified by saying it is 2 1/2 books with her dead because the fact is most of Full Circle featured Janeway as a living breathing character ONLY THROUGH the through flashbacks. Janeway was still dead in the timeline of that book.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2011
  19. Nick M

    Nick M Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Bring Back Janeway panel from Shore Leave audio now available

    Jolan Tru,

    Well, as I figure out this tech stuff I am proud to announce that The G and T Show (a podcast devoted to Trek lit and Trek writing) the Bring Back Janeway panel from the 2011 Shore Leave is now available for you to listen to. It runs just under an hour.

    (Ummm, a note to Kirsten Beyer...I was unable to edit the comment at the very begining, I truly am sorry...the one where you say why you are out of breath. :eek: I am REALLY sorry!!!!)

    You can go to http://www.gandtshow.com and listen to it, or, for those who would like to download it for their iPod or other mp3 device, you can go to: http://t.co/71IXyeb - and *shameless plug* also subscribe to The G and T Show.

    I will apologize for the audio from some of the people asking questions, there were some pretty good fans blowing in there and the room was packed, but I think when Ms. Beyer replies to the people you will get what their question was.

    Enjoy and hope you become fans of the show!

    Nick
     
  20. Gates

    Gates Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Thanks, Nick!
     

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