Question

Discussion in 'Miscellaneous' started by Kenbushway, Feb 4, 2013.

?

Are real men becoming extinct?

Poll closed Mar 6, 2013.
  1. Yes real men are becoming extinct

    5 vote(s)
    14.7%
  2. No real men aren't becoming extinct

    10 vote(s)
    29.4%
  3. Yes and No

    5 vote(s)
    14.7%
  4. You're crazy, no one thinks about this.

    14 vote(s)
    41.2%
  1. Kenbushway

    Kenbushway Captain Captain

    Joined:
    May 28, 2012
    Location:
    Georgia, USA
    I apologize but I seem to be using a phrase wrong. As a person who grew up youngest out of 3 siblings all girls I am more than used to be people correcting me. I don't mean to say I take your corrections wrongly. Unless overly insulting I tend to take to mind what people say in their corrections as I have knowledge of my own problems with comprehension and getting a point across successfully. Its take a bit more for me to grasp certain things than it does most. As seen with the multi-qoute issue. It took about 3-4 times for me to finally remember to use the multi-qoute function correctly. I welcome any corrections you may have as it may help organize my own thoughts. Again sorry for the misunderstanding, caused by me of course.
     
  2. Coloratura

    Coloratura Snuggle Princess Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Location:
    Ohio, USA
    All men are real. All women are real. The only illusion is what takes place inside your own head.
     
  3. Kenbushway

    Kenbushway Captain Captain

    Joined:
    May 28, 2012
    Location:
    Georgia, USA
    I will openly admit that I am terrible at getting a point across, that is why I posted this particular subject as a question, instead of a statement of fact, I gave just my opinion. I often don't make my better points until after I debate someone, its that thing of having to defend your position rather than simply stating an opinion. When I started I certainly didn't have a great way of putting my opinion, but with defending an opinion comes better arguments that have slipped the memory or just come to attention. I have thought more about my opinion because of such debate, this certainly isn't the first time I've had a conversation about said subject and previous versions have gone a lot better. From those old conversations comes old arguments that are far better put.

    It was overly silly to mention things about dirty, fixing, or shaving of body hair. That is why I had that fourth option, which is the prevailing opinion according to the poll. I put in my personal positions on certain aspects of societal change that I found to be weird, I.E. Shaving of chest hair, arms for appearance. However I have a much better reason I find that a certain kind of man is disappearing. Apart of a man's character is supposed to be integrity, honesty, common sense, and most of all a sense of non violence. A "real" man may cry, because though he is emotional he is still strong. "Real" men respect woman and elders, people's personal property, and doesn't consider violence as the first and only answer to problems. Now the reason I say I think this type of man is disappearing is from my own personal experience and experiences of some others. While I grew up in high school and even a little in college I've seen something I don't like from young men from my generation and the generation coming after us. I've observed not the majority but a substantial amount of young man with no respect towards woman, if its not their family they don't care about elders; the way they speak towards them is appalling sometimes, just shameful the rest. I am not going after the average person who throws a cigarette on the ground, though annoying not something I am after. Its the willful destruction of property in any form whether it be actual damage or appearance wise, for just fun and laughs. One of the most disturbing things is the fact that its doesn't take much (just the word bitch) for a person to get into a fight. I don't mind people learning the sport of fighting, I like boxing myself. But in my opinion actual men are like Juan Luc Picard in a way, talk things out first and rational non violent endings. I hope this clears up and better defines some of the things (though not all) I think about what actual men are. I don't talk about woman because I am not one myself. It is not to exclude you as a gender. Woman are conquering the business world - more woman added to congress; woman are very on top today.
     
  4. Kenbushway

    Kenbushway Captain Captain

    Joined:
    May 28, 2012
    Location:
    Georgia, USA
    that is why I gave the poll option that I am crazy, because I myself thought it might be an option.
     
  5. Coloratura

    Coloratura Snuggle Princess Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Location:
    Ohio, USA
    I wouldn't say crazy, just that it seems likely that your perception of what should be and what is are a bit skewed.
     
  6. JiNX-01

    JiNX-01 Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2002
    Location:
    JiNX-01
    Hee. Well put.
     
  7. Ríu ríu chíu

    Ríu ríu chíu Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 10, 2005
    Location:
    Mr. Laser Beam is in the visitor's bullpen
    I'm not. I am a figment of my own imagination.

    I'm not even sure I'm reading this thread, or...if it's reading me.
     
  8. The Naughty List

    The Naughty List Working the Pole Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2004
    Location:
    Locutus of Bored
    It's not an assumption. You praised the manliness of getting dirty, working hard, having rough calloused hands, and being able to do repairs. Two of the things we know about you from prior discussions are that you like digging holes for fun and work in auto repair. Are you going to tell me that those two facts didn't influence your little profile in masculinity, even if you don't feel you quite fit the bill yet?

    Your whole post on the other hand is making assumptions about others. That someone with soft hands from working indoors isn't doing hard work just because it's not manual labor. That someone who is clean and has good hygiene is "worried" about getting dirty, or that there is anything wrong with being worried about that if you don't want to ruin your clothes or appearance at that time. That this non-existent problem is generational rather than individual based on a few anecdotes from your time in school. That your definition of manliness is somehow universal.

    You talk about being respectful to everyone, but you're not. You've disrespected countless individuals based on your ridiculous and arbitrary standards, as I said before.

    You keep adding dumber and dumber reasons why someone is not a man. Seriously, shaving their head and how they shake hands in casual situations? Who gives a shit? I guess we better call The Rock and Samuel L. Jackson and a slew of soldiers down here to tell them the bad news that they're not real men any more, since they've done both.

    All men are real men. There's no need for qualifiers or reasons to fear their demise simply because they have different preferences, goals, or abilities.

    Somehow you've managed to be completely juvenile and sound like a bitter old fart in a single post. That's an impressive achievement. Mazal tov.

    ETA: I see you added another post explaining things again while I was typing this up. This refers to your previous posts to that one.
     
  9. Coloratura

    Coloratura Snuggle Princess Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Location:
    Ohio, USA
    But you're also in my imagination, which makes you real to me. :D
     
  10. Ríu ríu chíu

    Ríu ríu chíu Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 10, 2005
    Location:
    Mr. Laser Beam is in the visitor's bullpen
    ^ So I guess I am keeping it real, then? Yo.
     
  11. marksound

    marksound Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2008
    Location:
    Planet Carcazed
  12. Coloratura

    Coloratura Snuggle Princess Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Location:
    Ohio, USA
    Indubitably.
     
  13. Avon

    Avon Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    May 7, 2010
    Location:
    Avon
    My mother can rebuild a motorcycle engine. Is she a Real Man?
     
  14. thestrangequark

    thestrangequark Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2006
    Location:
    Brooklyn thestrangequark
    Ken, firstly, I appreciate your open-mindedness. I also apologize if I came on strong. I do like to argue a point, but I want to assure you that that is all I am doing -- I do not mean to attack you as a person.

    Locutus already covered a lot of salient points, but I also have some points I'd hope you'll consider when thinking about your position:

    First, a lot of your worries are coming from your observations of your peers and younger people -- seeing behaviors that concern you and therefore cause you worry about the state of society in the future, correct?
    The problem with this position is that you are generalizing the behavior of a small group of people at a very specific stage in their development, to all people at all times. Think of it this way: when you see toddlers crying over a bumped knee do you lament that the future generations will be wimpy crybabies? Of course not, because crying over a bumped knee is developmentally appropriate at that age. You can't generalize your peers' behavior to the future because they haven't grown up yet. Sure, there are some brilliant, responsible, respectful, mature teens -- and equally there are some childish adults, but generally speaking, people do mature, and so we can't make grand-scale predictions about the devolution of society based on the behavior of teens any more than we can based on the behavior of tots -- because, unfortunately, it is developmentally appropriate for teenagers to be stupid, vapid little shits. ;)

    If you need further evidence to support this idea, take a look at the following quotation. It's risking a cliche to post it, because people so often moan about the state of the next generation that this gets trotted around all the time:
    Sounds familiar, huh? But you know who wrote that? Plato, attributed to Socrates. Every generation laments the failings of the next, because they are failing to grasp that the kids will grow up!

    Now, the problems with your definitions of manliness, why they're based in a false premis, and why they are offensive. You seem to have an idea of what you think a man is, and you seem to think that there were more men who typified your ideals in the past. Thing is, there weren't. There was never a time where the majority of men were dignified and gentle, yet still rough-and-tumble and sturdy, Humphrey Bogartesque heroes. Those are just movies and rose-tinted memories of octogenarians reliving imagined glory days. You are basing your ideas of manliness on a Gold Standard of a Golden Age that never actually existed. False premis.

    Next, your standards are completely arbitrary. They are based only on fashions, nothing more. In Ancient Egypt manly men had tiny corseted waists and eye liner. In 16th century Europe and East Asia manly men wore the highest high heels possible, with bright red soles -- high heels were only adopted by women during a stage when androgyny was In and women started to wear more manly clothes. Pink was considered a masculine color until the 1930s. Gender roles were generally equal among common folk in most of Europe well through the Middle Ages. In other cultures many of our stereotyped gender behaviors are completely reversed. Homosexuality has gone in and out of style over the decades, and in the West really only became associated with femininity in the 19th century. In some tribes (in Papua New Guinea, if I am remembering correctly, though if someone knows, please correct me) one is only considered manly if one gives and receives blow jobs. In Ancient Sparta, the manliest of men were rampantly homosexual and women were dressed as men on their wedding days! The point is, what is seen as masculine or feminine is completely arbitrary and changes over time. There is no set of standards that make one man more of a man than another, whether it be fashion, skills or hobbies, physical capability, attitudes towards women, sexual orientation, whatever. And the same goes for women -- you brought up shaving of body hair as making men less manly. Shaving of body hair only became fashionable for Western women in the 1920's -- am I less of a real woman since I shave my armpits and legs? After all, real women are hairy. Do you see how ridiculous all your rules sound in the context of history? Can you also see how it is offensive to men who don't fit into your arbitrary rule set to be told they are not real men?
     
  15. Scroogourner

    Scroogourner Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2008
    Location:
    Sojourner
    Someone once said, "Don't try and be a great man, just be a man".

    [​IMG]
     
  16. Trekker4747

    Trekker4747 Boldly going... Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2001
    Location:
    Kansas City
    I'm just going to sigh, take my glasses off, close my eyes, pinch the bridge of nose and then go to bed.
     
  17. sidious618

    sidious618 Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2005
    Location:
    sidious618
    My opinion on this is obvious from my previous posts but I'll extrapolate a little through personal experience. I live on Long Island which is outside of NYC but surprisingly different from. It is a very close minded area and definitely has the same view as the OP on what makes a "real man."

    You can probably guess that I don't fit this stereotype although it has nothing to do with being a nerd. It has to do with the fact that, apparently, to most LIers I am a gay man. I'm not. But I guess my actions and personality make them think that. For example, I have pretty much ZERO talent with mechanical things or with fixing broken appliances. I dress very well, button down shirts and nice jeans. I also wear tighter clothing because I like the way it looks. I am artsy, for Long Island at least, and would rather talk about movies or books than sports or beer or whatever else.

    I'm also a bit feminine (again, in their opinion- I don't think there's such a thing as definite feminine behavior) in my behavior. I tend to wave my hands around a lot while talking and I'm very expressive as opposed to stoic and don't have much of a "manly" walk.

    Now I could easily change some of this. I've always refused as it would be a lie. But I can't say that it's not frustrating and has made it difficult for me to make friends here. Since I've been in the city more I've made a lot more pals.

    I also want to add that by no means am I trying to say I have it as hard as men who are gay- definitely not true. I'm just saying the fact that I'm perceived as gay or not a real man or both has hurt me a lot throughout my life. I've tried my best to remain true to myself, though.
     
  18. thestrangequark

    thestrangequark Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2006
    Location:
    Brooklyn thestrangequark
  19. Coloratura

    Coloratura Snuggle Princess Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Location:
    Ohio, USA
    For what it's worth, I know how you feel. I live in a part of Southwestern Ohio that's right smack in the heart of "dually truck, skoal tucked into your lip, cut off tee shirt even in the winter, readin' books with just words are for pussies" country.

    I smile a lot, use the mid-register of my voice instead of the deeper country twang, and I'm polite, saying "Please, thank you, sir, ma'am", and so on. This results in my getting funny looks, epithets tossed my way. Hell, I used to work in a farmer's market office, where a booth owner actually asked me "if I was a faggot" because I referred to him as "gentleman", when getting assistance from another office clerk.

    Most of you obviously know about my love of cartoons, one in particular, which of course draws it's own assumptions about my sexuality, and about my preponderance towards other things by which I will not dwell on here.

    The point is, there is this ridiculous notion that men must behave a certain way, that they have to follow some kind of guideline to "be a man", and it's all arbitrary.
     
  20. sidious618

    sidious618 Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2005
    Location:
    sidious618
    I should add that if someone wants to be the "real man" that's been described and is happy with that then there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But it's wrong to expect others to act in the same fashion.