Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by suarezguy, Jan 18, 2014.
Yeah ... that was Lucas' intention, here. But ... it certainly wasn't the result.
I recently rewatched the DS9 episode "Children of Time". The episode where a future Odo essentially wipes out the settlement of 8,000 people by rigging the Defiant's computers to escape the barrier. Present Odo told Kira he (future Odo) did it for her and out of love.
Here is a quote from Memory Alpha regard what Rene Auberjonis and Ronald D. Moore thought.
Auberjonois: "He allows an entire civilization to just disappear in a blink. He could rationalize it because of his love, but it's a big thing. It's tricky. I'm still not sure about it, or what kind of message it sent to the audience."
Moore: "It tells the audience how deeply this man can love. He can love to the point that he will sacrifice an entire world for a woman."
Compare what future Odo did to what Anakin did in Episode III. There is an ugly parallel there. While Anakin personally murdered Jedi knights, younglings and the Separatists leaders. Future Odo kills/erases from existence 8,000 people (many if not all) he has lived with and their families for 200 years. They both murdered for the women they loved. Future Odo is wiped from existence also since he never has to live with his decision. While Anakin had to live the next 24 years in daily agony for his crimes.
Also Deadpool is not a fan of the Prequels
I don't know where you're coming from with things like "now that she's not ruling the Galaxy, she's got this strange personality shift that's just there because it's in the script". She never ruled the Galaxy. She was a Queen, and a Senator, but both were elected positions and she's expressed her interest in public service, rather than having any thirst for power. It looks like you're assigning traits to her personality that just weren't ever there.
And as for any personality "shift" in that dialogue scene ... it's all entirely plausible (convincingly written and performed are another matter). But it's not gratuitous or done for the expediency of the plot. Padme's not "simply ... a mechanism for emotional manipulation." There's much more to the scene than that. Who is to say that her reaction cannot possibly happen? People react to betrayal in many different ways - including exactly how Padme reacted: Confronting Anakin, trying to simply run away (with him) and hide from the atrocities, and finally resigning herself to the realization that he's become a monster and that he was beyond her reach.
You want to criticize the dialogue and acting, that's legitimate ... but the intent of the scene, the overall meaning behind what Anakin and Padme both say and do, ... simply isn't as you are characterizing it.
Eloquently stated. Thanks.
No, it's not the intent of that scene at all. It's pretty clear what Lucas intended and if one wants to quibble about the effectiveness of the dialogue spoken by Natalie and Hayden then that's fair game, but Lucas designed the landing platform scene on Mustafar to be the moment that Anakin's rage at last gets the better of him and he tries to destroy the two closest people in his entire life. The moment he truly becomes Darth Vader in all of his anger and confusion.
I figured that Anakin's suffering killed Padmé from afar, by a Force power that he didn't really intend to operate that way. She was giving birth while he was being operated on. He projected his trauma or pain on top of what she was already experiencing, and her body or nervous system couldn't take it (there's some flexibility here, I'm still growing this idea).
Whatever it was, the medical droids couldn't measure it. It would have looked like a woman dying during childbirth, except for there being no medical cause in her or in the babies for what was happening. So, the droids came up with some bullshit about her simply losing the will to live.
At least, that's how I would have explained her death.
I thought the scene worked really well. It's apparent from the dialogue in Epi II and III that Anakin has a personal jealousy against Obi-Wan. On Tattoine Anakin blames Obi-Wan for his own (Anakin's) shortcomings. In episode 3 Anakin senses that Obi-wan had visited his and Padme's home and seems very irritated/possessive of Padme when he questions her about Obi's visit. When Padme tells Anakin that Obi-Wan told her about his crimes; Anakin perceives it's Obi-Wan fault for Padme turning against him, and not Anakin murdering children and wanting to be a galactic dictator. Then when Obi reveals himself he lashes out at Padme and chokes her. There is one final bit where Anakin yells at Obi-Wan for 'turning her against him' and that 'he will not take her from him'.
That's what makes the scene to great in my opinion. We the audience know why Obi is there and what he plans to do. As Obi confronts Anakin, it's apparent that they are talking past one another. Obi is there to end Anakin's life, but all Anakin can talk about is how Obi is his enemy and that he won't allow Padme to be taken away from him.
That's actually a very, very good theory. Certainly a thousand times preferable to "she's dying of a broken heart in spite of some of the most advanced medical droids in the sector tending to her childbirth." She and Anakin had a psychic link of sorts through the Force and as cybernetic Vader was being painfully created on Coruscant his searing physical discomfort was transferred to his wife in a fashion, overwhelming her already-strained physical condition from the Force Choke and giving birth to twins.
Luke's ROTJ could not be peppered with more dark side personality traits, as he had to resolve:
1. His desire to be Jedi.
2. Learn if Vader was his father.
3. Confront the Sith.
The audience had to believe that with all Luke was set to face, he was inherently good, and thoughtful. His mature attempt to change Vader (Endor walkway) and his initially cool exchange with Palpatine further sold the idea that he was not Anakin 2.0
The shock--a necessary shock--comes when this Obi-Wan-like young Jedi finally meets his breaking point as Vader threatens to turn Leia. For the audience, THAT was the moment when they were supposed to fear he could turn. The reaction was so violent, so unlike the growing Luke we witnessed all through most of ROTJ, that the positive build-up was hanging by a thread during the attack on Vader.
In other words, he was not Anakin, who--by necessity of the Prequels story--needed to exhibit dark side traits long before his actual turn.
I take Luke's warning to Jabba to be in tone with a classic, or "old-school" Jedi: state your intent--even if threatening--with a monk-like, slightly paternalistic calm. At this point in Luke's journey, he believed he was moving toward knighthood in the mold of his aged mentors, so he would not bear any of the sadistic, arrogant traits seen in his father.
That's awesome. I liked a lot of the PT elements, but I chuckled nonetheless.
It was the hormones.
I've wondered this for a long time.. did Anakin use the Force to emotionally manipulate Padme into loving him and overlooking his flaws?
"You don't need to see his identification" could just as easily be "You don't need to see a reason for this behavior". He could have started out with just a bit of handwaving to smooth things out so she wasn't shitty about something one day and just gotten more and more into it until she was addicted to him, bound to him, and blind to him. Total emotional abuse.
^If so, that's something I would have liked to actually see. It would certainly make a lot more sense.
She's no dummy, he would have to hide it from her. I'm sure he didn't need to actually hand wave all the time. Probably had it down to just rubbing his fingers together "nervously".
With Anakin's huge midichlorian count he probably didn't even need to wave or rub any hand or fingers to implant suggestions in somebody's mind. I don't know if he ever did such with Padmé because I'm in the camp of "she was just too in love with his dysfunctional ass to pay closer attention to some of his worst faults," but it's certainly possible.
And maybe that's part of why romantic relationships were discouraged and forbidden in the Order. It would be too easy to use one's Jedi mind trick powers to control the relationship and that would be seen as profoundly dishonest and ultimately destructive to both parties.
Wasn't there a scene in AOTC where Padme asks about Jedi mind tricks and Anakin tells her they only work on the weak minded?
I'm searching for it now but I don't remember when it was said.
Good point there cooleddie with them being forbidden.
I can't imagine Anakin, a manipulator who really wants his own way in everything not tweaking Padme's perceptions to get it. It is too much temptation for a man who thinks he will one day be able to stop people from dying to not stop the woman he loves from seeing him badly.
And then I think it would snowball.
HE probably told her that to keep her from ever suspecting he was using them on her. And since he is so powerful he may have been able to influence people with stronger minds anyway. Also she's in love, she's open and receptive to him unlike someone he is in a potentially antagonistic relationship with.
The scene he's talking about might be from AOTC where Anakin and Padmé are rollicking on the plains and in the tall grass and they sit down to joke and have the conversation about whether or not democracy or one strong person would be the better government for the Republic.
Anakin (after proposing that one man should have the say): "Well. If it works."
Then he gives that sinister smile right before they laugh and play it off.
I don't hate the prequels but I don't love them either. I think I was disappointed by two things in them:
1. Losing Darth Maul at the end of the first film without any real insight into the character.
2. We didn't get a complete film with Vader being a bad ass. One movie of whiny-ass Anakin was more than enough. The second was just overkill.
Episode I should've been us learning who Anakin was, Episode II should've been his rise and fall as a Jedi, Episode III should've been focused on Vader kicking ass and taking names.
teacake's suggestion that Annie's been using his Jedi Magic on Padme is an interesting one. But I doubt that happenned very much, in the beginning. Certainly not in Attack of the Clones, where she's playing "hard to get." As Queen (I know I keep saying "of the galaxy" but I'm just exaggerating), she can be many things: Idealistic, Corrupt ... whathaveyou ... but not weakminded. Not as an effective leader whose citizenry demanded she stay on (though she refused). And besides ...
It's so much better - for you - when the one you want is "there" with you because it's their choice. If they're there out of guilt, or manipulation, the very quality of the relationship suffers and what's left is mainly appearances. No. Annie wasn't playing with her mind, at least throughout most of their relationship. She's there to put a practical slant on everything to make what he wants possible, like demanding their relationship be kept secret. She doesn't blindly follow his lead, but she definitely sees herself as having married "up" ... someone who's almost godlike. She's in awe.
If he did want to control her, he didn't do a good job of it. She even let herself get pregnant, something he definitely wasn't thinking about and didn't want, but he puts a good face on it, for her sake. And finally, I suspect that he did not control her emotions as much as he controlled what information she was privy to. He didn't tell her everything. Indeed, he came and went as he wanted and she simply accepted it as part of his job - like being married to a doctor. Besides, all this stuff about Annie being so powerful - I never saw it. He seemed about on par with everyone else, really.
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