Question for the Parents on TrekBBS

Discussion in 'Miscellaneous' started by Kenbushway, Jan 29, 2013.

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Spanking, a valid form of punishment?

Poll closed Feb 28, 2013.
  1. Spanking is a valid form of punishment

    19 vote(s)
    59.4%
  2. Spanking isn't a valid form of punishment

    13 vote(s)
    40.6%
  1. 1001001

    1001001 I Like the Beats and the Shouting Moderator

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    I think this is one of my primary complaints. Some people paint it as a black and white situation: either you spank your kids, or they'll be animals running wild in the streets. There is a middle path.

    I don't like the term "punishment" as much as I like the idea of natural/logical consequences. That's how learning takes place, IMHO. I think spanking "teaches" them the wrong lessons. JMHO

    I've never had a situation, in 18 years of parenting, when spanking seemed necessary. I will admit that there were times I wanted to, but if I am brutally honest that was about my anger, not about some noble intention to "teach them something".

    And just for the record, our 18 year old has a 4.2 GPA and is off to college this fall. The 10 year old is a straight A student, a black belt in Tae Kwon Do, and just the sweetest, kindest little boy you've ever met.

    :)
     
  2. thestrangequark

    thestrangequark Admiral Admiral

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    ^Agreed entirely. The two times my mother hit me, it was attention-getting, it wasn't the actual consequence. She followed up by explaining what I'd done wrong, why she'd hit me (the first time out of panic when I'd run into the road, and the second time out of panic/anger when I pushed my epileptic little sister down and she hit her head), and with the actual consequence -- which in these cases was making me understand the danger I had caused to myself and to my sister. Spanking as punishment seems lazy parenting to me.
     
  3. Kenbushway

    Kenbushway Captain Captain

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    That is going to reverse as these new generations come into adult age. Majority have no discipline and have friends for parents.
     
  4. thestrangequark

    thestrangequark Admiral Admiral

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    Do you have evidence to substantiate that claim? Or is it just what you think you're seeing?


    Because there is actual evidence showing the opposite:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20385647

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17874924

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=to-spank-or-not-to-spank
     
  5. KimMH

    KimMH Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I was spanked as a child and also subjected to shaming. The shaming was far more effective a deterrent, I believe.

    I spanked only a couple times and wish I had reacted differently. The heat of the moment can be dangerous for both parent and child. Sometimes parents are in as much need of time out as children.
     
  6. Robert Maxwell

    Robert Maxwell Comfortably Numb Premium Member

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    My son was spanked constantly by his mother and (more often) her boyfriend. He is almost 6 and has some serious aggression issues. I got custody of him about a month ago, and while I haven't spanked him at all, every time I raise my voice he runs away like he's afraid I'm going to beat him.
     
  7. Kenbushway

    Kenbushway Captain Captain

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    There is no thinking, I am actually seeing it. Maybe its the region I am in but I fear for the future of the nation with the nitwits I've seen coming from the younger about to be adults generations. 650 students graduated with me, so far almost half have done nothing, a third of the half that has is pregnant with either #1 or #2 baby and they aren't in college or have decent careers.
     
  8. thestrangequark

    thestrangequark Admiral Admiral

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    ^Anecdotal evidence is not evidence. It is worse than worthless as evidence of what is actually happening in the world. Can you provide unbiased, real evidence that what you think you are seeing is actually occurring?
     
  9. thestrangequark

    thestrangequark Admiral Admiral

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    Jesus, that's horrible. I'm so sorry you have to go through that. I hope that he starts to feel safer and more comfortable now that he's in a non-violent home. I hate to say good luck, I'd rather say good work, because it sounds like you're doing the right thing for him.
     
  10. Kestra

    Kestra Admiral Premium Member

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    RM's son is a real cutie, too. :)

    My parents never spanked us or hit us in any way, though that was probably rather common in their culture growing up. I don't know that we ever did anything terribly bad or unsafe though, so I'm not sure how they would have reacted with some of the events in this thread. I don't think I'd ever spank a child of my own simply because I do have a temper and I'd never be able to trust that I wasn't doing it out of anger. Beyond that, I have zero experience in parenting and can't really speak much to any of this.
     
  11. Sector 7

    Sector 7 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I have seen it, too. Don't bother trying to make some of these people understand, many claiming to have open minds do not.

    Contrary to their belief, not every person who spanks a child is doing it in anger. Many of us who discipline our children are teaching them valuable life lessons. I have never struck my children in anger, because I was a victim of such behavior. My children know I love them and, now that they are grown parents, appreciate the lessons they learned. They can each count on one hand the number of times they were spanked. They still remember WHY it happened each time, because I explained it to them.

    Beating a child is wrong, but proper punishment of a child teaches right from wrong. My boy could probably have been beaten with a 2"x4" and laugh at you (he is still hard-headed). His worse punishments were not being allowed to go camping or fishing with his friends. My girl, however, would break with a light pop to her bottom. For her, knowing I was disappointed in her actions was usually punishment enough.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
  12. thestrangequark

    thestrangequark Admiral Admiral

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    ^My mind is open. Show me some evidence that you are correct and I will consider it. Is your mind open to the possibility that you are wrong?
     
  13. wissaboo

    wissaboo Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    My kids got a few swats on the bum when they were toddlers. I'm not gonna lie. Could I have handled it better? probably. Do I think I did them any harm? nope.
     
  14. Kenbushway

    Kenbushway Captain Captain

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    Other than number difference. What is the difference between my 650 and the thousand used in the studies you provided?
     
  15. iguana_tonante

    iguana_tonante Admiral Admiral

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    That much is obvious. Not to mention, the difference between anecdotes and statistics.

    And many claiming to be rightful are actually full of bullshit. Go figure.

    So you teach your child right from wrong... by doing something that you consider wrong yourself. Talk about mixed signals.

    Why would he need an open mind since he's so obviously right? Only people who are wrong like us need to open their minds!
     
  16. thestrangequark

    thestrangequark Admiral Admiral

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    That is an excellent question! As iguana said, you are confusing anecdote with evidence. Anecdote is not a valid form of evidence for a number of reasons, but first, let me demonstrate by providing an anecdote from my own experience. Bear in mind, I am not using this anecdote as actual evidence, but rather, to illustrate one of the many reasons anecdotes should not be considered evidence:

    I was a teacher for several years. In my experience, the children who were spanked at home had far more behavioral problems in school than those who were not.

    My evidence is in direct conflict with yours. So, is my anecdotal evidence better than yours? Should mine be considered more reliable because I have training and experience in education and psychology and you do not? The answer is no. Mine is equally worthless.

    Anecdote is subjective experience, and therefore it is always biased. In this particular case, I suspect you are experiencing a huge amount of Confirmation Bias. You are not displaying any neuropsychological modesty, and that is absolutely necessary to get an accurate image of the world. You must recognize that our brains are not accurate recorders of our experience and environments, that our perceptions and memories are inherently flawed, and that our natural ways of thinking are neither logical nor correct. Anecdotal evidence is worse than worthless, because not only does it give us incomplete and inaccurate impressions of the world, it can actually lead us to wrong conclusions.

    The evidence I provided, on the other hand, is scientific evidence. These studies have been controlled to eliminate the natural biases in human thinking, and to account for other possible variables, such as children who already had difficult temperaments, exposure to other forms of violence, socio-economic status, etc. These are very well controlled studies, in fact. You cannot compair your anecdote with real evidence, because they aren't even in the same league.
    Ahh...I missed this edit. Just wanted to say, I never said that all parents who spank do it out of anger. I don't know who "they" are, as I doubt that most people think that all parents spank out of anger. I think most people who are against spanking think that parents spank out of misinformed and misguided efforts to modify their children's behavior. In fact, I refer you to my first post in the thread:
    Spanking to get attention, especially in situations of danger is, if not the best course of action, at least a very understandable and sometimes effective course of action. I do, however, spanking to "teach" anything is wrong and lazy parenting.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2013
  17. -Brett-

    -Brett- Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Sounds more like a commentary on your school, town, or the state of the economy in general. How are you correlating this one way or the other with corporal punishment? You can't possibly know 650 former classmates that well.
     
  18. thestrangequark

    thestrangequark Admiral Admiral

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    ^Exactly. There's not control at all, it is completely unacceptable as evidence.
     
  19. iguana_tonante

    iguana_tonante Admiral Admiral

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    Have I ever mentioned that I am a statisticophile? Because you made me kind of aroused with this. :alienblush:
     
  20. thestrangequark

    thestrangequark Admiral Admiral

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    ^Did you see the P value of the first study I cited? :drool: