Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by 2takesfrakes, Jan 8, 2014.

  1. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2007
    Location:
    In many different universes, simultaneously.
    First of all, Gillian didn't want Kirk. She wanted to stay with the whales.

    And Gillian didn't spill the beans about Gracie's pregnancy - Spock did.

    As for Kirk expecting Gillian to pay for the pizza, I've already made this point in another thread on another topic: Kirk is unfamiliar with cash. Not money as a means of economic exchange, but cash. We don't know how much he's spent up to that point, but we do know that Kirk has no idea whatsoever about the value of things. As he said to the crew: Don't splurge. The money they got from selling his glasses is all they've got.

    Plus, Gillian invited Kirk. Of course he would expect her, as the one who extended the invitation, to pay.

    The beer was nothing more than product placement.
     
  2. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2012
    Location:
    USS Berlin
    But he anticipated that Gillian wouldn't believe him which is exactly what happened:

    GILLIAN: Well, 'Admiral', that was the briefest dinner I've ever had in my life, and certainly the biggest cockamamie fish story I've ever heard.
    KIRK: You asked. Now, do tell me something? ...George and Gracie's transmitter. What's the radio frequency?
    GILLIAN: Sorry, that's classified. Look, I don't really have a clue who you are. Really! You wouldn't want to show me around your space ship, would you?
    KIRK: That wouldn't be my first choice, no.

    Apparently, Gillian's interest was to learn how Spock found out that Gracie was pregnant. And, of course, Kirk's claim that he could somehow relocate the whales but wouldn't say how.

    It's interesting, however, that a lot depends on acquiring the whales' radio frequency but Kirk still wouldn't risk a violation of the timeline by showing her around "his" space ship (maybe he'd be embarrassed to admit it's actually a stolen Klingon Bird of Prey. Quite an even stranger command for an "admiral" :lol:).

    Bob
     
  3. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2013
    Location:
    Philadelphia, PA
    What's also interesting is that when Kirk asks Spock, right before Gillian drives up to give them a ride, "are they (the whales) going to help us?" This question is asked so matter-of-factly, but everything depends on their going along with it. Spock's answer is interestingly vague, at this point, "... I believe I was successful in communicating our intentions." Well ... that's good! Yeah, we kind of established that your mind-meld worked, already. Now ... do you want to answer the question that was put to you?!?!?!
     
  4. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2012
    Location:
    USS Berlin
    ^^ I'd say the whales didn't like the plan. Would they not have stayed in the institute's vicinity to be "picked" up rather than to make a run for the open sea?

    Probably the whaling ship changed their minds...;)

    I mean seriously, Gracie is pregnant but wouldn't mind to be beamed aboard a spaceship that will somehow try (suceeding) to travel to the future where they will be the only whales in the oceans.

    This was not an "Earth will be destroyed and we are your only chance to escape annihilation" scenario but just a weird request of seemingly people from the future.

    Had I been one of these whales, my reply would have been that these apes from the future should do something stopping the apes from the present from killing my kind.

    That was probably the reply Spock got but he decided not to mention it... :evil:

    Bob
     
  5. Shaka Zulu

    Shaka Zulu Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2013
    Location:
    Bulawayo Military Krral
    When I saw the movie back in 1986, the Ontario Film Classification Board listed the movie as having 'Swearing'-I though that was going to be the 'F**K bomb and the s**t bomb (and maybe done for laughs.) What I saw said by Mr. Spock ('They are not the hell your whales' & 'The hell they did') were by that time so old and denuded coming from Spock and Kirk that they weren't even funny. A better exchange (if Murphy had been cast as the Cetacean Institute director-I believe that he actually was supposed to be the Klingon Ambassador) would have been this;

    TAYLOR/Murphy: What the fuck were you doing swimming in that tank, and what were you doing to my fucking whales?

    KIRK (playing along) Yes, speak up!

    SPOCK: I am very sorry, they do like you a lot, but they are not
    your fucking whales.

    TAYLOR/MURPHY: I suppose that they told you that, huh?

    SPOCK: They fucking did.​

    Now that, along with the substitution of the word 'fuck' for the word 'ass' in the street crossing scene, would have brought the house down coming out of the mouth of Spock and Kirk.
     
  6. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
  7. Shat Happens

    Shat Happens Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2013
    Good thing they didn't hire Samuel L Jackson then.
     
  8. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2013
    Location:
    Philadelphia, PA
    THE VOYAGE HOME is, quite simply, not funny. But, in fairness to those involved in the making of it, TVH was never labled as a "comedy." "Lightness in tone," is how it seems to have been described, pretty much. And yet, for the radical, no-rules Nicholas Meyer, having penned ALL of the San Fran material, it's surprising how old-manish his brand of humour is. It wouldn't even be so bad, if it wasn't laid on so thick. The predicament of the whales was definitely different, though, and - dare I say it? - original, but it's so half-thought-out. For instance ...

    What are the whales using to amplify their moans, clicks and wheezes to the alien probe, across the light years? And what, exactly are they talking about? The novel, it seems, wants to suggest that the whales just relate their endless tales of eating shrimp, making babies and swimming all day. And for this essential knowledge and experience, a destructive probe is sent to wipe us all out. What really bothers me is that sales in Europe were their usual amount for these movies - so it's only we Americans who lack the sophistocation enough to not reward this whale-turd of a picture.
     
  9. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2001
    What light years? The probe came to Earth to communicate with them. Evidently it didn't know they were gone until it got here, otherwise why wait over 250 years? And why assume they were the ones doing the amplification? A super-advanced alien probe would presumably have the technology to detect their communication.


    I was never clear on whether the destruction was intentional or just a byproduct of the probe's attempts to contact/locate the whales.
     
  10. Shaka Zulu

    Shaka Zulu Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2013
    Location:
    Bulawayo Military Krral
    And yet, the Europeans are the ones who make (humorous?) posts like these at BBS's about how every sci-fi movie ever made has aliens landing in America....indicating that they want to see these films, and make them too.
     
  11. Ensign_Redshirt

    Ensign_Redshirt Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2007
    Thread title made me laugh. ;)
     
  12. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2013
    Location:
    Philadelphia, PA
    The whole notion of whales being sentient is absurd. A Humpback's song does not have a syntax. Having it communicate anything other than it's more primative and immediate urges and needs is impossible. It can't happen. But that's the magic of movies ... watch STAR TREK IV and there it is, whales making these offputting noises and saving the Earth with them. So, why not take it further, you know? Let's make George the Captain of his own starship and we could listen to his Captain Logs and stuff ... bemoaning the heavy burdens of command and juggling that with the responsibilities of a family and homelife, onboard. How does he do it? Stay tuned ...
     
  13. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2001
    Aside from the fact that you're misusing the word "sentient," there is abundant scientific evidence for cetacean intelligence. What's absurd is our species' pathetic egocentrism and need to pretend we're somehow unique in the animal kingdom despite the ever-growing scientific consensus that we're not all that special.

    Really, it always astonishes me when I see Star Trek fans expressing such kneejerk hostility to the idea of cetacean intelligence. Science fiction has surely primed all of us to accept the idea that nonhuman life forms can be intelligent and worth communicating with. The idea that there are real nonhuman intelligences right here on our own planet, just waiting for us to become smart enough to talk to them, should be incredibly exciting and enticing for any genuine fan of science fiction.


    What I always find truly ridiculous about the "animals can't think" crowd is their insistence that if an animal lacks any aspect of human intelligence, if it's less capable than us in any way at all, then it can't be sapient in the slightest and must simply be a mindless flesh machine. What's hilarious is the unintentional implication there: namely, that it is impossible for any thinking being to be less intelligent than a human. In other words, what you're assuming is that humans are the stupidest possible intelligent beings that can exist in the universe. :lol:

    Is it so hard to grasp the idea that it isn't like flicking a switch, that our level of sapience is the end result of a cumulative process and that other species may have parts of what we have even if it's at a lower level? Recent brain scans of dogs have suggested they have a level of self-awareness and consciousness equivalent to a 3- or 4-year-old child. Most of us have memories of being 3 years old; no doubt we were conscious beings at that time, even though our mental abilities were not as fully developed as those of an adult human. And no, they don't have the ability to communicate with the kind of syntax human language uses, but then, neither did early hominids, even though they were clearly intelligent beings in other respects. Lacking one human ability doesn't mean a species has none of our abilities.
     
  14. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2013
    Location:
    Philadelphia, PA
    But the one ability they all lack is the ability to understand concepts. I'm sure many parents around the world are so proud that their 3 year old has the intelligence of an Airedale - now that's comedy! "Oh, look, Dan ... Muttley ate his own excrement and threw it up. Now he's returning to his own vomit ... look at him!" "Oh, yes! Isn't it something, Jodi, how he's as intelligent as our own little toddler!" Come ON, Christopher ...

    Humans have been around, evolving, for roughly 4 million years. That's a pretty long time, there's no question of that and you know what we've accomplished during it.

    But take dinosaurs - they have been around for roughly 250 million years. Two Hundred ... and Fifty ... Million ... years. That's a significant slice of The History of Life. Many were two-legged, had hands, of a sort. Certainly, Human sized, or smaller dinosaurs were warm-blooded. Birds are still around and are still as dumb ... as they can be. Yes, magpies, supposedly recognize themselves in a mirror. Yes, crows, in particular, are fairly adept at using twigs and objects to fetch and break things for their consumption and use. Oh! Progress! But again, they've had every advantage - a quarter of a billion years to figure out how to rub the sticks together and concepts continue to elude their mental grasp.
     
  15. Maurice

    Maurice Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Location:
    Walking distance from Starfleet HQ
    ^^^You'd be funny if you were funny.
     
  16. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2013
    Location:
    Philadelphia, PA
  17. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2001
    I understood plenty when I was 3. I was learning to read when I was 3 -- by definition, I couldn't do that if I couldn't understand what I was reading. Your assumptions about intelligence are profoundly misinformed and profoundly wrong. You should try reading up on the subject rather than just assuming you're right.

    The really important part of intelligence isn't just understanding concepts. It's understanding that you can be wrong and have incomplete knowledge. Accepting that is the only way you can open your mind to learning more.
     
  18. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2013
    Location:
    Philadelphia, PA
    When I said "... the one ability they all lack is the ability to understand concepts," I was talking about animals, not children. Whereas you were trying to put them on equal terms. This is very much not the case. It's like one of those things people say, "animals are as smart as 3 year olds," the same way they all have to say that "Led Zepplin" or "The Beatles" are the greatest bands who ever lived. By your own admission, you understood concepts at three, you spoke words and all of those things which animals cannot do. These types of comparisons between animals and Humans just aren't there, I'm sorry.
     
  19. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2007
    Location:
    In many different universes, simultaneously.
    Do you understand the concepts that a whale understands? Do you understand, with 100% accuracy, what and how any non-human mammal thinks? I rather doubt it. I'm still learning new things about cats, and I've raised them for over 35 years.

    I find it really hard to fathom how a purported Star Trek fan could be so narrow-minded.
     
  20. Maurice

    Maurice Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Location:
    Walking distance from Starfleet HQ
    There are all kinds of intelligence, I suspect, and to dismiss others because they're not the precisely the same as ours or don't have features doled out in the same ratios as us smacks of chauvinism.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2014