Power of the Federation

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by EmperorTiberius, Oct 13, 2012.

  1. Ian Keldon

    Ian Keldon Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2011
    The Romulans had been in isolation for decades, perhaps even the better part of a century. Then they show up with ships over twice the size of the Federation's best and biggest, cloak equipped at that, and powered by a new type of power generation of great potential. Couple that with the traditional Romulan strategy of sneak and strike, and I'd be afraid of going to war with them myself if I were the Federation. As Picard said once while reviewing sensor data from a sector of the Neutral Zone "There could be an entire fleet out there and we can't even see them".

    The old shibboleth about "no warp Romulans" is a misinterpretation of Scotty's line about "simple impulse", which referred to the ship's power source, not a lack of FTL capability.

    Impulse power is basically fusion power. All of the statements in Balance of Terror where the Romulans are obsessing about power, about fuel, about "reserves" makes perfect sense if fusion power is powering their engines as well as their "big gun", the plasma-implosion torpedo.
     
  2. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2003
    ...And regardless of whether that single ship had FTL or not, the Romulan Star Empire clearly knew the secret of FTL flight at that point. It actually sounds like a bigger feat to make a cloud of plasma pursue the enemy at high warp than to make a solid starship do the same!

    But only if the weapons were sufficiently destructive. Yet it appears that it takes several minutes to do any serious harm to the enemy even if one is firing constantly and aggressively - shields prevent lightning-fast solutions to battles. There's plenty of time for the (hu)man(oid) in the loop to ponder how to react, or even whether to react; many threats can simply be ignored.

    Yet we have seen them eat. So they might just be brave and stoic about not sleeping, either. Perhaps the thing about no Jem'Hadar women is a lie, too?

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  3. Deks

    Deks Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2003
    That's certainly how construction 'appeared' in Trek, but it simply doesn't make any sense.
    A lot of construction work today in real-life can be easily automated (we won't talk about the financial ramifications though because this is a pure resource/technological thing separate from 'money' and cost).
    Federation technology should be far beyond what we can do.

    As for the Jem'Hadaar making the ships... doesn't make sense.
    While I will accept the notion that 'some' things may require a humanoid interaction, they wouldn't involve actual building because they would be well beyond the level of tech necessary to do this.
    Chalk it up to the writers dumbing everything down intentionally for the sake of drama - or because they simply didn't know any better (both apply to how they handled Trek on numerous occasions).
     
  4. Nightdiamond

    Nightdiamond Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2009
    Location:
    California
    The thing is, in the show the Federation say the Dominion can build fleets faster than they could destroy them.

    So why can't the Feds, Klingons, or Cardassians do the same thing?

    I don't know if the show says anything about automated shipyards, though, and that's the problem.

    Just looking at Enterprise's construction in "Booby Trap" it looks too much like they needed manual labor to put the Enterprise together.

    When you put together the fact that the Jem Hadar don't sleep, don't need to relax, have no diversions--and they are available to work at all hours of the time/day--

    --it makes a lot of sense that they could be the ones building the ships a much faster rate and output.

    Just a theory I had to come with, because yeah, Trek dumbed down a lot of stuff, with no explanation. :lol:
     
  5. Arpy

    Arpy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2001
    When the Klingons were less meat-headed I thought of them as on par with the Federation but ultimately a little weaker. Especially when you brought in the scientists.

    The Romulans, by the 24th century, seemed to be a third superpower themselves but still less powerful than the Klingons.

    The Cardassians at first were problematic but ultimately nonthreatening - the Galor Class Trager Macet commanded was dealt with easily enough. Later they seemed to be up there under the Romulans, but overall I see them as a nation the Federation would beat but at considerable cost - unlike the Klingons who they'd also beat but at a devastating cost.

    Both the Romulans and the Klingons have the benefit of being much older nations which I think explains how they're still competitive with the Federation - they've had more time to conquer and invent. The Klingons also have the benefit of alien tech early on via the Hur'q. Still, given the UFP is already ahead of them, I see the gap only widening the further ahead in the future you go. Cooperation, science, and altruism are more efficient and competitive than force, threat, and anger.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2012
  6. KamenRiderBlade

    KamenRiderBlade Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2012
    Logically, the Federation should have the fastest tech level increases with the way their society is structured. The cooperation of over 150 species in all aspects of science, tech, and everything else in life is really quite a sight to behold from a long term perspective.

    When you see the time traveler from the future in VOY that came back in the tiny shuttle craft, it single handedly had enough power to take out Voyager with it's Subatomic Disruptor. If Janeway didn't overload Braxton's emitter by matching Voyager's shield frequency with Aeon's disruptor, they would've been dead very fast from a futuristic shuttle.

    So what does that say about tech progression, 1 little shuttle is enough power to take out Voyager if it hadn't figured out a technobabble solution to counter the shuttle's weapon system.

    The Federation will still be around in the future, and it will have time travel capabilities.

    The Federation is always coming up with new tech and integrating some of the newer stuff.

    In the recent novels, they start mass producing Quantum Slipstream drives for the initial batch of new ships.

    The Romulans steal the Prometheus Class because it's so powerful that it can take out a Romulan D'deridex class with so little effort.

    Before the USS Enterprise-D had plenty of trouble dealing with just 1 of them a few years earlier.

    This says alot about Starfleet putting it's talent on tech and making effective offensive / defensive ships.
     
  7. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2009
    Location:
    T'Girl
    Today a small 40 year old fighter can fire a missile that can then destroy a top of the line naval cruiser.

    With the correct weapon mounted on it, a TOS era shuttlecraft could destroy Voyager.

    :)
     
  8. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2001
    Location:
    Great Britain
    The classic example of that might be from WWII were an obsolete Swordfish bi-plane managed to cripple the top of the line Bismark with a torpedeo.
     
  9. KamenRiderBlade

    KamenRiderBlade Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2012
    Exactly, creative thinking, unorthodox uses of technology, new technology for that matter.

    The torpedo being mounted on a aircraft was new in WWII, it hadn't been done before that time AFAIK.
     
  10. The Green Mushroom

    The Green Mushroom Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2001
    Location:
    United States
    I wouldn't be sure of that, as I understand how things work in Star Trek.

    I have long believed that fighters would not work in Star Trek for one reason and one reason alone. Today, fighters work because they can carry missiles that can cripple a ship, if not directly cause it to sink. In Star Trek, at least among the major powers of the Alpha Quadrant, no one possesses a weapon that can take down a ship with its shields raised. And in a fight between a starship and a shuttle, I have seen nothing to indicate that a shuttle has better or more durable shields than a bigger ship.

    A shuttle from the future disabling an intact Federation starship (and I will work the visual evidence of an always clean Voyager meaning that the crew can repair any damage they sustain with enough power for the replicators) means that the shuttle must be more advanced than the Voyager.
     
  11. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2009
    Location:
    T'Girl
    You would seem to be contradicting yourself here.

    Nomenclature aside, a small craft damaged a large craft.

    :)
     
  12. EmperorTiberius

    EmperorTiberius Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2009
    We don't really know how advanced other species are. The fact that Federation is dominated by humans would mean that humans are probably the most advanced species. Other species might be similar to stagnant Bajorans. That's why I don't put much stock into the 150 creative species theory. It might give Federation slight edge, but don't underestimate the power of disciplined totalitarian states like Romulans/Cardassians to make significant advances on their own.

    Japanese and Germans in WWII made significant advancements in only a few years. Germans perfected the armored warfare and had best tank in the war. Japanese had biggest/may be best battleship. Soviets, through sheer numbers and industrial strength (their own and US's) pushed back more advanced Germans. Later on, they kept up with the resource-rich US just fine for decades.

    For all we know, an old civilization like Klingons could be spread over 50,000 planets and outnumber young humans and most of their other members 10-1 in sheer manpower. This alone could make up for their lack of industrial efficiency and scientific diversity. Look at the standard of living in US compared to China, but Chinese are doing a good job of keeping up industrially, and may be they're even ahead of US in that area.
     
  13. KamenRiderBlade

    KamenRiderBlade Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2012
    Being Taiwanese, I know for a fact that the China is a rising economic power, but there technical capabilities leave a lot to be desired. What they do is copy whatever they are taught. They have a very hard time innovating on their own.
    They also like to skimp on areas whenever possible.

    Look at a Chinese made car being tested for safety.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5SRyG6UR2A

    Would you pay money for a car of that safety caliber?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/06/b...-in-emerging-auto-markets.html?pagewanted=all

    "Ford’s market research found that as recently as 2006, safety ranked last among the nine most important attributes for Chinese car buyers. Although safety has moved up to sixth, the exterior appearance of a car was the top priority for buyers then and now. "

    "Chinese regulators are putting pressure on Chinese automakers to strengthen their designs. They have begun issuing star ratings for safety to cars sold in China, after copying the test methods from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration in the United States. "

    We've had lots of 5 Star rated safe cars in the US for how long? China is starting to issue star ratings? WTF?
     
  14. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2009
    Location:
    T'Girl
    Buy American.

    [yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xM8E-CogkYE[/yt]

    :)
     
  15. KamenRiderBlade

    KamenRiderBlade Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2012
    Buy non chinese and non korean made vehicles.

    Japanese, American, German, UK vehicles are my choices.
     
  16. JRoss

    JRoss Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2010
    Location:
    Stain'd-by-the-Sea
    The Cardassians have been shown to be very weak, militarily. Benjamin Maxwell seemed likely to cripple the Union on his own. Since Cardassians don't believe in battlefield ethics or have war crimes, I assume that Nechayev's comment about war with the Cardassians costing millions of Federation lives referred to Cardassians being willing to obliterate civilian populations with sneak attacks, not actually posing a threat to the military.
     
  17. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2001
    The Cardassians had individual ships that weren't a match for Maxwell's Phoenix or Picard's Enterprise, but as a state they were far more military-oriented than the Federation. If the Cardassians could out-number each Federation starship by 10-to-1 in an engagement, they could win every time. Eventually Maxwell would've been defeated, since eventually the Cardassians would've mustered a task force to destroy his ship.
     
  18. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2009
    Location:
    T'Girl
    Maxwell destroyed a supply depot, a supply ship with a small crew, and a single combat vessel of unknown size, it very unlikely one Starfleet ship could have crippled the Union on it's own.

    Dialog strongly suggests otherwise, the Federation and the Union fought a protracted series of wars (hot and cold) over the course of decades. The treaty of Journey's End featured the Federation losing a sizable piece of the territory they were fighting over.

    Remember many of Starfleets ships are quite old, lot's of Excelsiors still in service. Picard's previous command look to be from the TOS movie era, it ended up running from a Cardassian warship just to survive. The after battle of Wolf 359 showed a few connie "refit style" ships among the derelicts.

    Starfleet would seem to have relatively few ships the size and power of Maxwell's Phoenix or Picard's Enterprise.

    Picard: "The last war caused massive destruction and cost millions of lives."

    Picard would seem to be referring to the combined cost to both sides. He was speaking to a Cardassian officer at the time. Some of the deaths were to civilians, but there was infantry ground action too, a younger O'Brien participated in such.

    Ship to ship combat occurred as well.

    We know very little of how the Federation is internally structured. There has been conjecture from some fans on this board that the majority of the people in the Federation literally do absolutely nothing.

    But do they? During ENT, a Vulcan military cruiser traveled at warp seven. During TOS a century later, Kirk's ship cruised at warp six. Not much cooperation there. From what we saw in Journey to Babel, the members of the Federation can have a very adversarial relationship with each other.

    :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2012
  19. EmperorTiberius

    EmperorTiberius Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2009
    Right. In video games (not cannon I know) Cardassians are presented as a race whose ships are designed for massed fleet engagements. They dont' work well on their own. They seemed to have been much more potent during Dominion War. It's also worth noting that Nebula and Galaxy class ships are not exactly the type of ship you'll find in every sector.
     
  20. KamenRiderBlade

    KamenRiderBlade Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2012