Post TMP 5 Year Mission

Discussion in 'Trek Literature' started by Jsplinis, Aug 18, 2013.

  1. Jsplinis

    Jsplinis Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    I hope to start my TOS 2nd Five Year Mission marathon soon, but I have some continuity questions.

    The VOTI timeline lists the novels in the following order:

    Night Whispers
    TMP
    Ex Machina
    Kobayashi Maru
    Home is the Hunter
    Enemy Unseen
    Firestorm
    Mere Anarchy: The Darkness Drops Again
    Ice Trap
    Shell Game
    Death Count
    The Wounded Sky
    Rihannsu: My Enemy, My Ally
    Doctor's Orders
    Spock's World
    The Better Man
    Covenant of the Crown
    Time trap
    Rihannsu: The Romulans Way
    Rihannsu: Sword Hunt
    Rihannsu: Honor Blade
    Rihannsu: The Empty Chair
    Rules of Engagement
    Deep Domain

    If I were to use this as my reading order/ timeline, then I have a few questions.

    1. Where would Forgotten History best fit?

    2. Why are the L.A. Graf novels like Firestorm and Ice Trap placed so early. I read that they feature the "red jacket" uniforms so shouldn't they be after The Better Man where these uniforms are introduced. Or is there other timeframe details that force the earlier placement?

    3. Other than the three novels listed above and Deep Domain. Do any other stories in the list feature the "red jacket" uniforms?

    4. I recently flipped through Pandora's Principle and noticed Kirk was called Captain. Shouldn't he be an Admiral if this story happens after Deep Domain during his Academy Instructor days?

    5. Am I correct in understanding that New Earth's time placement of being shortly after TMP is only mentioned in the notes and cover blurbs? I read somewhere that it features Kirk as an Instructor at the Academy and Spock as a Captain which would place it after Deep Domain. But contrary to this placement, Chekov hasn't begun his transfer yet and the "red jacket" uniforms are introduced as new for the second time. Are there any other timing issues?

    I know not all novels are meant to coexist. I'm just hoping to read the novels in an order that will have the least inconsistencies. Any help will be appreciated.

    Thanks.
     
  2. JWolf

    JWolf Commodore Commodore

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    There never was a 2nd 5yr mission. It was just assumed there was and wrongly so.
     
  3. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    In some novels, like Spock's World, they're explicitly at the midpoint of the second 5-year mission, post-TMP.

    Perhaps you're thinking of the pre-TMP second 5YM which The Wounded Sky and others were originally written to be a part of?
     
  4. JWolf

    JWolf Commodore Commodore

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    Nope. I'm thinking of the 2nd 5yr mission that never was a 5yr mission. Any book that mentions a 2nd 5yr mission has it wrong.
     
  5. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Well, first off, I personally put The Darkness Drops Again before The Kobayashi Maru. Forgotten History would probably go between that and the L.A. Graf books.


    Firestorm is supposed to be five years after "Elaan of Troyius." Ice Trap is eight years after Chekov joins the crew, which should make it 2275 by my reckoning, but for some reason the Pocket Timeline puts it in '74. (Even given that he was aboard as of "Space Seed," that was late enough in the season that it should be 2267.)

    Also, I don't know why they put The Better Man so late, when it's explicitly in 2273. At the time it was written, the Okudachron put TMP in 2271 for unclear reasons, so Howie wrote the book with the assumption that it was two years after TMP, hence the "new uniforms" reference. But once VGR established that Kirk's 5-year mission had ended in 2270, that meant TMP had to be in 2272-3, and Pocket assumes '73. So that would put TBM much sooner after TMP. Personally I put it between Ex Machina and Darkness Drops, making it the second adventure post-TMP, and I take McCoy's reference to the "new uniforms" as being about the TMP uniforms which he's still getting used to (after all, they're never specifically described as red jackets).


    Hard to say. I don't think a lot of them specify in the text, and you can't always trust what's on the covers.


    They put it after DD? That doesn't make sense. The Pandora Principle should come late in the post-TMP 5-year mission, before Kirk's second promotion. A plot thread in that book is about Kirk being worried that he's going to be promoted to the admiralty again.


    There are a lot of issues with those books, but those are the main ones I'm aware of. Yeah, for some reason, most of the post-TMP books with historians' notes over the years have claimed they were "shortly" after TMP, even when there was no reason for that claim. But the Timeliners concluded that those books made more sense if they were after the second 5YM, and I agree with that conclusion.


    No, King Daniel is right. You're mistakenly thinking of the hypothetical second 5-year mission taking place before TMP. We do know now that that didn't exist, because TMP took place in 2273, and thus there's no room for a second 5YM before it. But that's an entirely separate issue from the existence of a 5YM after TMP, the one spanning 2273-78. That's what we're discussing here, and its existence is an established part of the modern novel continuity.
     
  6. Jsplinis

    Jsplinis Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Thanks Christopher. If I were to adjust the reading order for your comments, the reading order would look like this:

    Night Whispers
    TMP
    Ex Machina
    The Better Man
    Mere Anarchy: The Darkness Drops Again
    Kobayashi Maru
    Home is the Hunter
    Enemy Unseen
    Forgotten History
    Firestorm
    Ice Trap
    Shell Game
    Death Count
    The Wounded Sky
    Rihannsu: My Enemy, My Ally
    Doctor's Orders
    Spock's World
    Covenant of the Crown
    Time trap
    Rihannsu: The Romulans Way
    Rihannsu: Sword Hunt
    Rihannsu: Honor Blade
    Rihannsu: The Empty Chair
    Rules of Engagement
    Deep Domain
    New Earth

    What do you think?

    6. You said Forgotten History would be between Kobayashi Maru and the L.A.Graf stories. What does that mean for Home is the Hunter and Enemy Unseen? Should they stay in that gap and be before or after Forgotten History? Or should I move them elsewhere?

    7. Also how do you feel about the placement of Covenant of the Crown and Timetrap?

    8. And are Doctor's Orders and Spock's World ok relative to the other Diane Duane novels?

    9. Do your TMP stories refer to your TOS short story As Others See Us?

    I know I could figure this out for myself by reading the stories, but I would rather read them in a good order the first time if I can. Thanks for the help.
     
  7. Captain Nebula

    Captain Nebula Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Why couldn't there be another 5 year mission?

    1.) It's fiction. It's ALL made up.
    2.) There's supposed to be a 10 year gap between TMP and TWOK. Fill in the gap.
    3.) Make it up. If you want to believe there was another 5 year mission, then by all means, believe there was another 5 year mission. Unless some other book contradicts that, who's to say you're wrong.
    4.) Other than JWolf.
    5.) 5 year missions rock!

    :techman:
     
  8. ryan123450

    ryan123450 Commodore Commodore

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    I just finished Deep Domain and then The Pandora Principle, and I was offput by the seeming reverse order in the VotI timeline. It also appeared to me that TPP should take place before Deep Domain what with Kirk's subplot, Chekov's presence on the Enterprise, and Nogura still being in charge of the Enterprise as opposed to Admiral Morrow in Deep Domain.

    The VotI reasoning as I see it is that The Pandora Principle takes place six years after Spock discovers Saavik and takes a year leave of absence to begin her education. I think this year is widely believed to have been around 2274/2275. So they concluded TPP takes place in 2281. This also gives Saavik 4 years at the Academy between her admission in TPP and her Kobayashi Maru in 2285 in STII.

    I see two possibilities to solve this situation.

    1. Saavik was found by Spock around 2269/2270, and Spock took the year off during the end of the first five year mission. Then TPP takes place around 2275/2276, with Deep Domain still in 2278. Saavik rose to the rank of Lt. before graduation partly because she stayed in the Academy for about 8 years before graduation.
    2. The second five year mission is actually longer than 5 years. TPP does take place in 2281, but Deep Domain doesn't take place until later. Then there is still four years for Kirk to be an admiral, have occasional adventures on Spock's Enterprise, retire, and then come back before TWoK.
    Christopher, does the dating of option two correspond to the details of your Mere Anarchy tale? I know it would be hard to reconcile Spock taking a year off during the original five year mission with the sheer number of tales already crammed into the final few years.

    There may just be no really good way to reconcile the timing of The Pandora Principle.
     
  9. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    I don't personally count those as part of the current novel timeline. HitH contradicts In the Name of Honor by killing off Garrovick, and EU... well, it has continuity issues. Mainly, the characters in the book acted like they'd never heard of a shapeshifter before, which clashes with "The Man Trap," "Catspaw," "Whom Gods Destroy," "The Survivor," etc.

    Anyway, FH has three parts, one of which spans TOS and the interim period, one of which is in 2274 while Spock is on leave to mentor Saavik, and one of which is in 2275 after Spock's return.


    Covenant needs to be 18 years after Kirk was a lieutenant commander. Since he was a lieutenant when the Farragut was destroyed in 2257, I put its flashbacks in 2258 and the main body of the novel in 2276.

    I don't count Timetrap in the modern continuity.


    Spock's World takes place between The Romulan Way and Swordhunt. Doctor's Orders doesn't make overt references to the rest of the Duane novels, so it's harder to place.


    As yet, I've had no opportunity to revisit any of that story's concepts in any later work. I assume that story takes place sometime between "Turnabout Intruder" and TAS.



    There couldn't be a second 5YM before TMP, given what's now understood. It used to be uncertain how much time passed between TOS and TMP, and though TMP itself indicated pretty clearly that Kirk had spent only "five years out there," there were nonetheless some fans and writers who assumed the in-universe interval was close to the 10-year real-life interval, leaving room for a second 5YM before Kirk's promotion to admiral. Some old books were written with this assumption in mind, but it's no longer viable given modern chronological assumptions.

    But like I said, that's a different topic from the idea of a 5-year mission after TMP. JWolf is simply confusing the two issues. There is no dispute (as far as I'm aware) that the Enterprise crew spent several years on a mission between TMP and TWOK, and quite a few works of fiction assume that mission was 5 years in duration; in particular, The Captain's Daughter has flashbacks to just after the end of that mission, explicitly referring to it as a 5-year mission. Although the Crucible trilogy (in a separate continuity from the rest of the novels) instead makes it a 7-year-long round-trip voyage to a distant part of space.


    In fact, a number of the details of TPP have been superseded by other subsequent works, including Unspoken Truth, which borrows some elements from TPP but interprets other elements differently (including the portrayal of Hellguard and the idea that Saavik was raised by Sarek and Amanda after Spock's initial training). So in writing Forgotten History I followed what UT said rather than what TPP said.

    In my version, after Darkness Drops part 1 comes The Kobayashi Maru, then after that comes the Hellguard rescue mission where Spock finds Saavik, followed by the appropriate flashback chapters in Unspoken Truth, during Spock's yearlong leave to train Saavik in civilized behavior (one of the ideas from TPP which UT does use). Forgotten History part 2 is a few months into Spock's leave, and part 3 is 9 months later, not long after his return. Obviously any other post-TMP books would have to come after that, since Spock is in them all.
     
  10. Captain Nebula

    Captain Nebula Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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  11. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    ^No, it has nothing to do with that. We already knew from TMP that there was a gap of two and a half years between the time Kirk was promoted to admiral and the time TMP occurred. What fandom disagreed upon was whether there was a second 5-year mission between TOS and Kirk's promotion. As I said, in the '80s the chronology of the 23rd century was vaguely enough defined that there was confusion about how much time passed between TOS and TMP. The prevailing view, supported by TMP's own dialogue, was always that there was a single 5-year mission, then 2.5 years of Kirk as an admiral, then TMP, then a second mission that was generally assumed to be 5 years. But there was a minority view that there were two 5-year missions before Kirk's promotion, and that view is at least implicitly reflected in several of the '80s novels, notably Diane Duane's books and Pawns and Symbols. Note that none of them ever actually came out and said "This is a second 5-year mission," but they had specific references to the stories taking place several years after TOS episodes (in particular, The Romulan Way was said to be 8 years after "The Enterprise Incident") even though the characters still had their TOS-era ranks, uniforms, and jobs. Thus we can extrapolate that the writers were assuming a second 5-year mission -- or at least were assuming that the in-story interval between TOS and TMP matched the real-world interval, rather than being years shorter as we now accept it to be.
     
  12. Captain Nebula

    Captain Nebula Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I see what you mean, but doesn't The Lost Years clear all of that up?

    From Amazon.com for The Lost Years
     
  13. ryan123450

    ryan123450 Commodore Commodore

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    It was already cleared up by the time those books were written.
     
  14. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Remember, the continuity back then was pretty loose. Yes, a number of the books had interconnections or cross-references, and that was starting to get more systematic in the last couple of years before the Richard Arnold crackdown on continuity, but it was never as tightly unified as it is today, and a lot of the books that were nominally in continuity with each other nonetheless had differences in detail and interpretation.

    And like I said, there was never any explicit statement that there was a second 5-year mission. That's largely my own extrapolation that I made in the "Continuity of Days Gone By" thread, based on a fan theory I remember hearing about, in order to explain the occasional strange timing reference in some of the novels, like The Romulan Way being 8 years after the third season yet somehow still pre-TMP. These are subtle timing discrepancies that readers -- and authors and editors -- back in the day could easily have overlooked.
     
  15. BritishSeaPower

    BritishSeaPower Captain Captain

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    I haven't read it yet, but doesn't the Marvel comic Star Trek: Untold Voyages make the case that the original Marvel run was part of a "new ongoing mission" between TMP and TWOK? I was told that aside from some wonkiness about setting up TWOK elements a few years earlier than it should, it seems to work fairly well as "bridging" the Second Five-Year Mission concept.
     
  16. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    ^Uhh, the original 1980 Marvel run was explicitly presented as a new ongoing mission after TMP. There was no need to retcon that later; it was overtly the case from the beginning. Just about every post-TMP novel or comic since then has been, has had to be, in a post-TMP ongoing mission, so it was hardly an innovation for Untold Voyages to follow that established precedent. And UV didn't reference the 1980 run in any way, as far as I recall. The '80 run wasn't that well-regarded, and I doubt Marvel was eager to remind people of it.

    Maybe what you're thinking of is the cover to UV #1, which had the caption "Tales from the Second Five-Year Mission!" But that was far from the first mention of a post-TMP 5-year mission; for instance, The Captain's Daughter had mentioned it three years before UV #1 came out, and I'm sure there were earlier references as well.
     
  17. TheAlmanac

    TheAlmanac Writer Captain

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    I can't speak definitively for someone else, of course, but I think the only point JWolf was trying to make is that there has never been a single canonical reference to a second five-year mission. It's an assumption made by the tie-in material, but not technically backed up by anything onscreen, and (hypothetically) someone could try to argue for/portray something else happening during that period.
     
  18. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    ^If that were what he were saying (and I'm not convinced it is), I'd agree with it in principle. However, the idea of a post-TMP 5-year mission is asserted in The Captain's Daughter, which is a book I count as part of the modern continuity (since it introduced the portrayal of John Harriman that subsequent books have followed) and which I referenced in Ex Machina. The Darkness Drops Again also references the idea that the post-TMP mission was 5 years long, for consistency with ExM. So it's part of the modern novel continuity's take on post-TMP events, though as we've seen with Crucible, there is room for other approaches in different continuities.
     
  19. Jsplinis

    Jsplinis Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    So I've updated my TMP-era 5 Year Mission reading order. I've added notes about placement. These notes are according to writer's intent and story content.


    The Second 5-Year-Mission Reading Order

    2273

    Night Whispers (immediately before TMP)
    The Motion Picture
    Renewal (immediately follows TMP-version 1)
    Shadows of the Machine (immediately follows TMP-version 3)
    Ex Machina (immediately follows TMP-version 2)
    Mere Anarchy: The Darkness Drops Again
    Kobayashi Maru

    2274

    Forgotten History part 2 (Spock on leave)
    Worlds Collide (Spock on leave)

    2275

    Forgotten History part3 (Spock has returned)
    Home is the Hunter
    Enemy Unseen
    Past Imperfect
    Firestorm (5 years after Elaan of Troyuis)
    Ice Trap (8 years after Chekov joins the crew)
    Shell Game
    Death Count
    Silent Cries
    The Wounded Sky
    Rihannsu: My Enemy, My Ally
    Doctor's Orders
    Spock's World (halfway point of 5 year mission)
    The Better Man (2 years into mission per author's intent)

    2276

    Covenant of the Crown (18 years after Kirk was a Lt. Commander)
    Time Trap
    Rihannsu: The Romulan Way (1 year after My Enemy, My Ally)
    Rihannsu: Sword Hunt
    Rihannsu: Honor Blade
    Rihannsu: The Empty Chair

    2278

    Pandora's Principle (6 years after Spock's leave)
    Rules of Engagement (near final mission)
    Deep Domain (final mission- version 1)
    Odyssey's End (final mission- version 2)



    Notes-
    A. I used the Pocket Timeline, then tweaked it per comments here.

    B. Mere Anarchy: The Darkness Drops Again and Forgotten History are placed per Christopher Bennett's comments.

    C. Home is the Hunter is included even though it contradicts In the Name of Honor because that isn't an issue for the time frame of this reading order.

    D. I included the Untold Voyages comics.
    Past Imperfect was intended as a second year story, so I placed it just before the L.A.Graf stories.

    E. Silent Cries focuses on Sulu, Chekov and Uhura so I placed it with the L.A. Graf stories which tend to have the same focus. I placed it after them because it was intended to be a fourth year story and the L.A.Graf stories are placed in the third year.

    F. The first 4 Rihannsu novels are included because they were "tweaked" to be post-TMP in the Blodwing Chronicles Anthology. The Wounded Sky and Doctor's Orders are kept with them even though they haven't been tweaked from being 1st 5-year-mission stories. Inconsistencies just have to be overlooked to make it work.

    G. Christopher prefers The Better Man has an earlier placement but also notes it was intended as 2 years after TMP. The year is not stated in the book so I left it where the Pocket Timeline placed it which is around 2 years after TMP.
    The Better Man introduces the new Starfleet uniforms. Their color is never stated but the fact that they include a jacket is mentioned repeatedly. I prefer the TMP uniforms to be used as long as possible, so this is another reason to keep The Better Man where it is. Actually, if possible I would prefer this story to be one of the last to further extend the use of theTMP uniforms.

    H. Pandora Principle should be 6 years after Spock's discovery of Saavik and subsequent leave. However, this places it in 2280, making the 5-year-mission 7 years long. This could be reconciled by disregarding the "6 years later" aspect or by placing the final missions in 2280 and assuming the 5-year-mission was extended.

    I. I've excluded the Prometheus Design and Triangle because I don't care for the "shipper" aspects I've heard they include.


    This timeline doesn't imply that these stories are all part of the same continuity or that they should be. This is just an attempt to create a reading order/ timeline representing the 2nd 5-year-mission with the least inconsistencies due to story placement.

    Let me know what you guys think and if there are any additions or changes I could/should make.

    Thanks
     
  20. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Actually the year is established pretty unambiguously in TBM. The story explicitly states that McCoy was on Empyrea in 2254, and he's suspected of being the father of a young woman who's just turned 18. Those dates are mentioned specifically and repeatedly in the text. Allowing for 9 extra months, that pretty much pegs the book as falling in 2273. (There are some references to the visit being 20 years earlier, but those are alongside numerous references to it being 18 years, so I assume there's some rounding going on.)

    And the bit about coming 2 years after TMP is really only mentioned in the historian's note; it has no relevance to the text proper. The author's intent is that the book takes place between 18 and 20 years after 2254, i.e. roughly 2273.


    I only find two mentions of a uniform jacket in a Google Books search of the text. They're easy enough to ignore.

    Heck, the TMP uniforms had so many variant styles that maybe there was a jacketed version we didn't see in the movie. We know they had those tan field jackets they used when they left the ship, at least.
     

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