Play matchmaker for Janeway

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by spot_loves_data, Apr 7, 2012.

  1. Lipton

    Lipton Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Yeah, conflicted. I notice we keep answering each other by editing our posts, it's kind of awkward. They should get one of those features that says if something has changed, etc.

    = Done editing this post =
     
  2. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    They do.

    Eventually.

    little yellow legend at the bottom of the post.

    And the post is locked after 24 hours.

    My spelling is almost as atrocious as my typing accuracy.
     
  3. Lipton

    Lipton Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Yeah, I guess they did develop some things in Unimatrix Zero, which was the precursor for Human Error.

    Development was rather rushed, but I guess that's the best developed romance they could do given Mulgrew's stance on Janeway/Chakotay. They had to kind of hurry it.

    I know what you mean about typing accuracy, sometimes I won't notice really obvious typos. My spelling is not always impeccable either.

    Thanks for the tip about the little yellow legend, I will keep an eye out for it.
     
  4. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    You know how I mentioned cuddling in natural law?

    Apparently, Jeri thought that cuddling or longing glances or something as a follow on from Human Error would be champion... She was told to stop "thinking" and just read her damn lines.

    Voyager didn't just have no development, it was against policy from the Network to endanger the brand by making the casual audience they were chasing "think" hard enough to cause spotting.

    Do you see a pattern here?
     
  5. Violet.Phoenix

    Violet.Phoenix Commander Red Shirt

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    I never liked the whole C/7 thing; it just appeared out of the blue with very little background in my opinion, plus the idea of Seven getting together with Chakotay after having a romance with a holographic version of him is just plain creepy.

    It was already said in the thread that Seven has the cortical implant that bascially shuts down her vital systems if she experiences hightened emotions, so you have to wonder how that all worked (of course I guess it could be just as easily supposed that the Doctor removed the implant at some point...).

    If the writers had wanted C/7 to work they should have shown some sort of degredation in the relationship between Janeway and Chakotay (because even in Endgame there was still more freaking chemistry between the two of them than Chakotay and Seven!) and then shown how Chakotay and Seven's relationship developed as a result.

    I will always be a J/C shipper, and though it never happened on the show I say that something could have happened in season 7 (before all the C/7 nonsense) after "Unimatrix Zero" (I mean, come on, them holding hands on the bridge! How does that not scream romantic subtext?).

    And when they returned home, absolutely they could have had a romantic relationship. As for Janeway being 'fate's bitch' I'm going to quote the good Captain here and say 'the hell with it.' Let Janeway have a little happiness.
     
  6. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    This is all good stuff. And I think if you want someone to plan a logical relationship Chakotay works well. Though we did not see any falling in love they did work together for years and has gotten all of that "getting to know you stuff" out of the way without any pressure at all. You can see how awkward 7 is when there is an expectation of getting to know you on her date with whathisname.

    I think wanting his babies is overstating it, she wanted a relationship and any babies or long term success was way down the track. Just like anyone in a first or in her case second relationship who has no idea what the future holds. Makes sense for her, for him I would have thought he was looking for more stability.

    I have known quite a few people who had no attraction for years and then suddenly connected and ended up with someone. This is also I think more likely to happen in a setting like Voyager where socializing doesn't proceed like in real life because there are never any new people coming into the mix and there's no way to escape from the people you're with. Just about any relationship scenario is possible for humans.

    As to the writers giving up on J/C by the season 7, the impression I got from what Mulgrew says was it was off the table a lot earlier than that.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2012
  7. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I also thought that was creepy but for 7 it was logical. And who knows how it is viewed when that option is always on the table, something we don't have. Trek doesn't explore the ethics of who you are sleeping with in the holodeck. Is it just one step up from fantasizing about someone? I would say it's a lot more than that but I don't live in that century where playing in holomovies has replaced passively viewing them.
    See I think Janeway had chemistry with EVERYONE. She's a wooer of her crew. She has that whole touching you just as she asks you to go on the impossible mission thing. She's incredibly personal in all her interactions.

    Of course I'm not denying there was subtext there between Janeway and Chakotay. There was overt subtext between her and Chakotay and her and 7.
    In the books Janeway and Chakotay got together, declared their love, slept together for ONE night and then they promptly killed her. Which is like the biggest asshole move ever. Then they reduced Chakotay to a blubbering emo wreck for another book which sure didn't help his character any (apparently this was "character development".)

    Though I've always enjoyed my J/7 I do think Janeway is more heterosexual than not and if they actually gave her Chakotay as a relationship I would be quite happy for her. I suspect if she does come back from Q-death in the next book there will be all this bullshit angst between them that will keep them separated much like all the bullshit angst between Picard and Beverly and Troi and Riker because they were having babies which apparently turns Starfleet officers in their 40's and 50's into soap opera head cases.
     
  8. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    No one new to the mix?

    What about the Equinox 5?

    "I don't care if you're a mass murderer, take your shirt off."

    Meanwhile...

    Kim fraks children.

    Seven had a baby.

    Kim didn't try to boff him because he was a him.

    Remember One?

    That was certainly a mother and son relationship, and Seven was well into it.

    Maybe like the doctor she was scared off further babies after the tragic and early death of their kid? Then having Mulcahey (the genetic sample donor) wandering about like a Ghost couldn't have helped.

    Being scared of babies is one reason to avoid a relationship with the opposite sex.

    Um.

    I've often talked about how mangled her sexual organs probably were in the beginning (and her internal physiology in general. The Doctor kept pulling out of her chunks of metal the size of your fist that kept growing back. Everything important yet ordinairy was pushed up over and into the strangest locals.) so when she hit on Harry in Revulsion... It's quite likely that she didn't have a working vagina, or a vagina at all. Just a storm of scar tissue and half sunk technology, but anyway if at that point, so early in her development/recovery Seven was like a barbie doll down there but she was offering sex to young Kim...

    "Borg Humour"
     
  9. Violet.Phoenix

    Violet.Phoenix Commander Red Shirt

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    I can maybe see the logic in her seeing Chakotay's qualities as a command officer being logical in the sense that he is a well-rounded individual, but it just didn't work from my perspective. I just found it creepy because it was a hologram of a real person, if it had been another hologram it wouldn't have been as weird.

    I totally agree. Janeway was always one to reach out to her crew in her own way; she wanted them to know that she cared about them, which I think was really important since they were stranded in the DQ and all.

    I'd say the subtext between her and 7 was more of a mother-daughter thing, but that's just me.

    Ah yes, the novels. I was glad to see that Janeway and Chakotay finally got together in the books, but it was one freaking night (better than nothing, but still). You see I'm glad that Chakotay got some character development, but I think to myself "they developed his character by killing off another pivotal character". That just seems a little off to me.

    Ugh, Before Dishonor. Don't even get me started on that frakking book.:klingon::scream:

    I'm honestly not a J/7 shipper (because I view their relationship as mother-daughter) but I think that Janeway could be with anyone she wanted to and it would work, because it's Janeway.

    If Janeway comes back in the new novel and actually gets to pursue a relationship with Chakotay I will be one happy bird :D. But there will be angst, no doubt about it. I can understand why, but at the same time I'm going to wonder is all Chakotay can do is wallow in angstness?

    On a side note, I find it really ironic that Picard and Crusher get married and have a child while Janeway and Chakotay go through hell and only get one real night together.
     
  10. Lipton

    Lipton Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    teacake: Well, I didn't literally mean she wanted his babies right then... and yes, sudden delayed attraction does happen in real life sometimes, but I was speaking in terms of stories. In my opinion, it's a lot easier to get away with that in real life than in a story.

    And yes, I practically threw the book across the room when I learned that they killed Janeway just after she got together with Chakotay!!! :(

    Guy Gardener: Yeah, Seven was probably pretty messed up inside at that
    point... in all senses!

    I do see a pattern with "thinking". A lot of it probably had to do with trying to do DS9 and VOY at once for years. It seems like VOY got the short end of the stick with that, just like the beginning of DS9 got the short end of the stick when TNG was still going.

    By the time DS9 ended, the trek people were so burnt out from doing two series, they just wanted to get VOY over with so they could move on to ENT and everyone could just focus on it.
     
  11. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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  12. Lighthammer

    Lighthammer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    So touching on a few points of interest:

    RE: Janeway and Chakotay

    I hadn't actually ever heard about Mulgrew putting her foot down. That makes sense in retrospect that something behind the scenes happened because that pairing frankly seemed perfect ever since Resolutions in Season 2.

    Any other pairing with Janeway felt unnatural after Resolutions.

    RE: Chakotay and Seven

    I absolutely agree that this seemingly came out of no where. Yea, there was some plot development, but not enough. Frankly, realistically, the way things went down, I would have more expected Seven to become infatuated with Chakotay and for him to pull the "You're not my type" card. Let's face it, up until that point, Seven and Chakotay weren't exactly in the same clique on the ship.

    The being said, I expected Seven to end up with Harry. Right on from The Gift the two had one of those awkward "I'm attracted to you, but I can't figure out how to express it in a way that doesn't make me out to be a complete fool" things going on. Like Toress and Paris, I expected them to eventually figure things out and get together.
     
  13. Violet.Phoenix

    Violet.Phoenix Commander Red Shirt

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    She says that she did so in this video:

    [yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibVOzPUvtww[/yt]

    That's exactly my thing with Chakotay and Seven. As for Harry and Seven, I saw the awkward attraction, but I felt it was more one-sided (Harry). I honestly expected Seven to end up with the Doc.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2012
  14. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I respect KM for saying don't make the first female captain all about romance. I think the character is much stronger for it.
     
  15. Violet.Phoenix

    Violet.Phoenix Commander Red Shirt

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    I agree that it was a good decision to not make Janeway's character all about her romances and love life, but instead her leadership and determination. However, it felt like something was built up between her and Chakotay and then it was never resolved. I just wish that there could have been at least a scene where they decide whether or not they can actually have a relationship instead of dancing around the idea for a good five years.
     
  16. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    They couldn't even give us that scene for Kes and Neelix and they actually were together and then broke up!
     
  17. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Smells like fear.

    "No" and "never" is so extreme.

    Left with a possibility that it might happen if the writers can woo her with a script that isn't pulp garbage, creates a window, even a marginal window that something unexpected can happen.

    On of my earliest memories is of my mother telling me to watch Magnum PI because he has a lot of girlfriends, later when I was a little more developed I started noticing that Thomas was more of a punching bag than a player... It's about then that I realized that my mother just watched advertising and not full shows because she had too much to do.

    Although...

    Kashyck, the guy from Workforce, and Sulivan from Fairhaven gave us the allusion that kathy was not completely closed to the idea of a relationship on her terms, it's just that her 'terms' were again extremely acute.
     
  18. Violet.Phoenix

    Violet.Phoenix Commander Red Shirt

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    They couldn't even give us Chakotay asking Seven out, or vice-versa. They just slapped it in our faces and we all went :wtf:

    Janeway did have some romantic relationships, but they were after she found out that Mark had moved on back home. Kashyk I think was partially the product of her trying to manipulate him and he trying to do the same, and they somehow fell in love in the process or something strange like that.

    Jaffen (from Workforce) was another instance were there were different circumstances. For one thing, Janeway's memories had been tampered with, and I think that allowed her to be more comfortable with relationships because she was in a different working environment (shame they didn't actually have her in a relationship with Chakotay as originally planned).

    Sullivan... I don't know what to say about that. People get lonely; it can be very lonely in space. He was something entirely different from the world around her.
     
  19. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    One thing I got out of the Sullivan relationship is that we actually see what Janeway wants because she programs him. I think its very significant that she says "make him more provocative". Chakotay is really lacking that, it's not a word you'd ever use to describe him. Perhaps if he had been less passive Janeway would have found her resolve to put her Captaincy first a little more challenged.

    I rather liked Jaffen. I don't think she was in love with Kashyk at all but she was quite likely in lust/attracted to him. Playing the role of seducing him to believe in her would have rubbed off on her as well.
     
  20. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    But he was too different.

    Janeway made him better.

    She made him taller and single.

    She gave a bar hand a first rate education.

    She made a man.

    What ever attraction she had in the beginning, was sidelined for something less embarrassing and demeaning.

    Was she more happy with Classic Sullivan or Sullivan 2.0?

    Put them side by side, which some would she pick?

    Or would our Captain just bed them together in a devils threesome?