Picard was right, Sisko was in the wrong..

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by popcultureevil, Apr 26, 2014.

  1. popcultureevil

    popcultureevil Lieutenant

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    Er.... shouldn't the Vulcan CO in Emissary have ordered all families off the ship PRIOR to the battle? Why even have families on board starships? That's cruel. what if a child just via a skirmish with Romulans, in which the ship is not badly damaged, gets PTSD or some trauma?

    That aside, I doubt how a CO of a ship, faced with a massive vessel of FAR greater power, could not stave off defeat, assimilation, or capture without luck or extreme resourcefulness. :techman:
     
  2. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Clean Old Mod Moderator

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    Mirandas clearly didn't have a battle-practical saucer separation option, so Starfleet was in the wrong for putting families on a ship like that in the first place. It had probably been assigned to combat-light duties in safe territories, but was mustered into battle on short notice to intercept the Borg.
     
  3. Lance

    Lance Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    To be fair, the reason why later Star Trek ships abandoned the concept of families on board has been attributed to perhaps being exactly because the Battle of Wolf 359 acted as such an eye-opener. The idea of having families on board ("generation ships") was perhaps something Starfleet was experimenting with at the time of TNG, until incidents like the Borg incursion shown how foolhardy this could be.

    Having said that, I agree that the armada that faced the Borg Cube knew they were going into battle, and the knowledge they had about the Borg meant they knew it might not be very pretty for them. So there really is no excuse for them not having off-loaded all of their non-essential personnel (like families) the moment that the mission briefing came through.

    Same goes for the Enterprise, although as The Old Mixer says at least Enterprise has allegedly got a contingency plan (the saucer-sepper, not that Riker used it that way in the event!).

    The best excuse I can offer is: the Titantic went out despite grave concerns being raised before she set off, about the massive gulf between the amount of passengers booked on her maiden voyage vs the paltry number of lifeboats. Sometimes it takes a big catastrophe in order to open the eyes of people to the most obvious of things. Sometimes idealism outweighs common sense, and it'd take families dying aboard ships like Saratoga to convince Starfleet maybe it isn't such a keen idea to put civilians on these things...
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2014
  4. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Clean Old Mod Moderator

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    Maybe they had nowhere to offload them to...they came running from wherever they were when they were called to get to Wolf 359 on time.
     
  5. Lance

    Lance Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I agree, maybe it might have been an emergency situation, but I still think there should've been the possibility to scramble and get as many people off ship as possible, maybe via the shuttlecraft?

    That said, we have no reason to believe this wasn't the case. The only family we see on-board Saratoga are Jennifer and Jake Sisko, so maybe leaving the ship was a voluntary thing for the civilian personnel and they just opted not to leave with everybody else.
     
  6. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Commodore Commodore

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    I don't see how this has anything to do with Sisko. He was not the CO of the Saratoga, and we know nothing of the circumstances by which the Saratoga entered the battle. On the other hand, Sisko orders civilians to evacuate DS9 on two occasions. He was more sensitive to their vulnerability.
     
  7. popcultureevil

    popcultureevil Lieutenant

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    Just thinking about loud.

    Just to me it's not a case of Sisko being the absolute victim, even though it was normal for him (who would say otherwise) to assign blame to Picard in some sense.
     
  8. Keith1701

    Keith1701 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I agree, Picard was right.
     
  9. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Depends whether you see Starfleet as a military or as explorers who occasionally have to fight.

    And whether the Star Trek world you live in is the one where people readily accept death.
     
  10. Rarewolf

    Rarewolf Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    If the Cube had of got to Earth they might not have been much safer there. Picard still lost his family in Generations. They might have been safer in a Starship.

    Besides, the Enterprise wasn't evacuated before engaging the Borg was it? Riker was prepared the ram at warp speed later on.
     
  11. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Commodore Commodore

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    There's not clear indication that Sisko blames Picard for Wolf 359. The animosity is symbolic of Sisko's own psychology, his inability to move beyond his wife's death. To that extent, Sisko is a reminder of the tragedy that Sisko has faced. It's a bit much to claim that Sisko is "the absolute victim," as if he is just acting selfishly, even when in daily life people might normally have difficulty facing people indirectly involved in their loved ones' deaths.
     
  12. Hober Mallow

    Hober Mallow Commodore Commodore

    "Unfortunately, we cannot always serve in the ideal environment." (Sips tea. Reclines back in chair. Mr. Mott enters and gives Picard scalp massage...)

    If you freeze frame on Picard just after Sisko stands up and says, "In the meantime!" you can actually see Stewart empty his bladder.
     
  13. Enterprise1701

    Enterprise1701 Commodore Commodore

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    Maybe somehow everyone except Sisko's wife refused to evacuate because she refused to be apart from Sisko? :confused: I dunno, has Jennifer ever been stated to not be stupidly in love with Benjamin?
     
  14. Avro Arrow

    Avro Arrow Commodore Commodore

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    I'm actually surprised we didn't see *more* Starfleet officers displaying some sort of resentment towards Picard for Wolf 359. As the audience, we know that Picard was helpless to resist in that situation, but I would have thought that more people in-universe might have blamed him for the loss of life.

    I guess the 24th century humans really are more enlightened.
     
  15. Nebusj

    Nebusj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    They could put the kids somewhere safe, like Earth, in case the battle doesn't work out. Or, well, maybe … New Berlin? Delta Rana IV? Minos? Bre'el IV? New Providence?
     
  16. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Clean Old Mod Moderator

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    Presumably they didn't have time to make such a trip...a bunch of ships had to come from all directions to get to the rendezvous point in time to intercept.

    I know we're used to starships moving at the speed of plot, but warp speeds are supposed to have limits, and space is supposed to be big.
     
  17. Rarewolf

    Rarewolf Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well you could get them out on Shuttles or half the escape pods before going into battle. Pick them up after if all went well.

    I'd still say Picard's decision in Descent to send everyone he could spare down to (potentially) a PLANET OF BORG one of the more questionable choices of the run.
     
  18. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    Sure in an ideal situation they would evacuate non-combatants. But that takes time and i got the impression that 40 starships was all that Starfleet could cobble together into a fleet given the time that they had.

    Ships might have been nowhere near a Class M planet/starbase or one they could detour to and still make the rendezvous.
     
  19. AgentCoop

    AgentCoop Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    How do we know they didn't offload people in shuttles before they arrived at Wolf 359? All we know for sure is that there were civilians still on board when the battle started. Maybe they evacuated as many people as they could before running out of shuttles.
     
  20. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    Or that the Saratoga could have been in the Wolf 359 system.