Phaser banks on the Constitution class

Discussion in 'Trek Tech' started by Vanyel, Feb 9, 2013.

  1. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2010
    @CorporalCaptain - Thanks for the link. I was wondering how they snuck in TAS references into the re-mastered TOS. They replaced the Woden and added a visual for Ramart's ship. It doesn't seem like Commodore April was referenced too much outside of TAS though. Oh well.
     
  2. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2011
    Location:
    Gene's office
  3. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2010
    @CorporalCaptain - So mostly subtle cosmetic changes. I guess that's the only way they could've sneaked it in without altering dialogue.
     
  4. Vanyel

    Vanyel The Imperious Leader Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2001
    Location:
    San Antonio, Texas
    Port, starboard, midships and aft are mentioned, being mentioned means they are there. Where exactly is the question for those phasers. You, I believe, brought up they were mentioned in dialogue.

    TAS would seem to be canon, or at least reference material; or "Questionable Canon" as Memory Alpha puts it in the links previously provided.

    However, In A Mirror, Darkly only showed the ventral phasers and the aft phasers providing dorsal shots. The Defiant in that episode even tilts to one side to fire torpedoes at the ship attacking her dorsal side. If there was ever a time for dorsal phasers on the saucer to fire, that would have been the time.

    So yes, where are the emitters?
     
  5. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Location:
    England
    April was mentioned in on-screen text in the Defiant's computer in "In a Mirror, Darkly"

    And also...
    John Harrison is seen waving around something referred to (in concept art and audio mixing files) as "April's big gun" on Qo'nos in the Star Trek Into Darkness trailers. And since Robert April just showed up in the first issue of the prequel comic Countdown to Darkness, it seems likely he'll figure into the movie somehow.
     
  6. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2010
    After taking a look at "In A Mirror, Darkly" I think you're going to have a different answer depending on which TOS continuity you're looking at.

    TOS:
    • Phasers in dialogue:

    1. "Balance of Terror": Forward, Port, Starboard and Midship (actual locations unknown)
    2. "Arena": Aft (actual locations unknown)
    • Phasers seen:

    1. Most episodes: Majority beams firing from the forward ventral saucer area.
    2. "Balance of Terror", "Errand of Mercy": Pulses firing from forward and starboard ventral saucer area
    3. "The Doomsday Machine": phaser firing from "port side" of the ventral saucer dome.
    TOS-Remastered
    • Phasers in dialogue (same as TOS)
    • Phasers seen (standardized to the same forward ventral saucer section on the lower dome except for...)
      1. "The Doomsday Machine": two saucer forward dorsal phasers fire at DDM from Enterprise
    Enterprise series

    • Phasers in dialogue
      • "In A Mirror Darkly" - forward emitters
    • Phasers seen
      • "In A Mirror Darkly"
        • aft phaser emitters visible and fired
        • two forward ventral saucer phaser emitters visible and fired. they later are no longer visible in later battle. they are positioned higher than on the TOS-Remastered version.
        • no visible dorsal emitters on saucer
    TAS - the dorsal firing as mentioned by Timo.

    Regarding "In A Mirror Darkly" - the aft phasers firing direction pretty much tells us where the enemy ship is so when it is pitching up to fire torpedoes the torpedoes are still having to hook a turn towards the target from what I can tell. The lack of dorsal saucer emitters suggest no phasers there, but curiously the forward ventral emitters that were present in the dock are no longer visible in that same battle. Did the emitters hide themselves once the ship was operational again? If yes, then that could suggest dorsal saucer emitters that were hidden and the aft phasers might have been used because they had a better LOS, IMHO. If no, then there are no dorsal saucer emitters in the Enterprise-series USS Defiant.

    But, there are dorsal saucer emitters in TOS-Remastered.
     
  7. Albertese

    Albertese Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    May 3, 2003
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Interesting. I did a quick analysis of the image from the remastered version of "Doomsday Machine" trying to figure out where those phaser beams are coming from. They're clearly not coming from the dorsal surface.

    [​IMG]


    --Alex
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2013
  8. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2003
    Or the left beam is coming from a forward (close, TMP style) pair of ventral emitters, and the right one is coming from a portside close pair. ;)

    A bit of tracking across several consecutive screencaps would be useful here...

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  9. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2010
    @Albertese - good catch! But wasn't the whole thing about TOS-Remastered was the standardization of where the phasers come from? Since it could not have been from the bottom ventral spot just forward of the lower dome then wouldn't this be a deviation?

    I'll have to watch it again tonight to take a look.
     
  10. Albertese

    Albertese Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    May 3, 2003
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Well, their definitely not coming from the lower dome. But the ringed area seems like a good option to me, especially seeing as how that are would sort of correspond to the refit, as Timo may be suggesting above?

    Even though the original footage from "Arena" seems to be suggesting the beams originate higher, up, if I were to play the "producer's intent" card, I would have to assume that that is a simple error in the printing of the optical effect and they had every intention of having those beams come from the area of the dome, as per usual, but they just "missed," probably by either goofing up the cel animation or else not having the equipment lined up right when they did the superimpose.

    But, in a WWTTD world, that is where those beams are coming from. I have no problem with assuming there are in fact a ring of phaser emitters at the level of the emitters on the TMP refit ship. Possibly these are the mid-ship phasers and the main phasers are located just forward of the lower sensor dome?

    I only have the the 1st season of TOS-r on DVD and I'm too stubborn to subscribe to Netflix so I have no way to actually watch this scene in motion...

    --Alex
     
  11. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2010
    Here are some screencaps. The first one is of the phaser scene in question. You can tell it stays with the forward rim of the Enterprise and doesn't seem to suggest coming from the ventral area.

    (Click image for full-size)
    [​IMG]

    and a second set with an assortment of phasers firing from a different position (mostly the lower saucer dome) but some maybe the port side ventral?

    (Click image for full-size)
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2013
  12. Albertese

    Albertese Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    May 3, 2003
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Yeah, those look like they're coming off of the front edge of the saucer to me. I excpect that top image of that second run is from that same area, but the others are certainly from the lower dome.

    So, how do we feel about forward rim phasers? It wouldn't have occurred to me, but I suppose I don't have any specific objection to them...

    --Alex
     
  13. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2012
    Location:
    USS Berlin
    Since this is TOS-R (ion pods instead of running lights, bomb bay doors instead of loading hatches) and they didn't get the stern of the teardrop right, either, I would give it too much weight.

    Bob
     
  14. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2011
    Location:
    Gene's office
    As far as I'm concerned, anomalies shouldn't be given overriding weight. This shot from TOS-R: The Doomsday Machine looks like it might be an anomaly; it has "W-T-F-were-they-thinking" vibe about it.
     
  15. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2010
    It doesn't bother me too much since I consider TOS-R it's own continuity (ditto for all the other series) :) But I am a little surprised of the new location. I doubt that it was a mistake unless they rendered the phaser beams as a separate render pass and composited it incorrectly.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2013
  16. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2012
    Location:
    USS Berlin
    I wish I had your optimism. ;) If I remember correctly the Defiant's phaser shots from the lower sensor dome at the Avenger in "In A Mirror, Darkly" would have penetrated the saucer itself, judging by the aft phaser beam angle (no Trekcore screencap available of the forward phasers firing).

    Bob
     
  17. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2012
    Location:
    USS Berlin
    How do we know that none of these phasers mentioned in "Balance of Terror" refer to phaser (bank) # 1 or # 2?

    CREWMAN 1: Port weapons show ready.
    CREWMAN 2: Starboard and midship weapons show ready.
    MARTINE: Acknowledge. All weapons batteries ready.

    TOMLINSON: Phaser one, fire.
    CREWMAN: Phaser one, fire.
    (Pulse phaser shots go into the darkness, rocking the Romulan ship)
    TOMLINSON: Phaser two, fire.
    CREWMAN: Phaser two, fire.

    Because of "Phaser overload. Control circuit burnout." we never get the chance to hear another one mentioned.

    Bob
     
  18. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2010
    I just watched that for something else and I think the scene you're thinking about they are firing photon torpedoes from the lower sensor dome while their aft phasers are simultaneously firing up. I'm assuming that the torpedoes looped back to hit the Avenger since it sounded like the hits were landing on target. If anyone is interested, I can try and screen cap that.

    Well, before I answer that, a quick explanation of what I think phaser banks are: a phaser bank is a big phaser energy buffer or capacitor that can then be directed partially or in whole to any phaser gun (emitter) on the ship. Multiple banks can be fired simultaneously through a single or a pair of phaser gun weapons (emitters).

    We see this in "For the World is Hollow I have Touched the Sky" where both "phaser banks one and two" were fired (simultaneously) through two forward emitters. And also in "The Paradise Syndrome" where they fired the four phasers (banks) in sequence through the ventral forward phaser emitters and then once simultaneously through same set.

    Now, upon watching the original FX from "Balance of Terror", when "phaser one" fired, we see three phaser pulses fire forward in sequence from three different locations from the ventral saucer area. So, it is possible that we're seeing three different phaser gun (emitters):
    1. ventral starboard, ventral forward and possible ventral port
    2. or ventral starboard, and the two ventral forward emitters.

    One phaser (bank) in this case powered three separate emitters at different times (one after another).
     
  19. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2003
    TOS seems to lack dialogue that would associate a "bank" with a location. That is, there is no "starboard phaser bank" anywhere, is there? Just "starboard phasers" and "phaser banks", not a combination thereof.

    Newer Trek does indicate that banks are associated with locations, say, in VOY "The Cloud" where there exists "the forward phaser bank". Considering the phaser emitter configuration of the VOY hero ship, though, the expression doesn't describe very well any specific individual phaser strip. It does describe a pair or perhaps a quartet of emitters capable of firing forward, though, thus possibly resembling the TOS situation, even if VOY era ships don't fire their emitters in pairs...

    So there should indeed be leeway to have a "bank" power several "emitters", even if some banks are dedicated to forward emitters, others to portside ones etc. This is in fact more satisfactory terminology than having a single emitter strip be a "bank", considering how the word has classically referred to an embankment protecting a number of guns. It also caters for the meaning of this being a reservoir of destructive power, a bank vault full of death.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  20. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2012
    Location:
    USS Berlin
    Sounds correct, especially considering events in "The Cage". The phaser gun (or cannon) on Talos IV was remote powered from the ship, suggesting a phaser power emitter with the actual phaser gun being some kind of receiver for this energy (funny thing though: If they were able to pinpoint the phaser energy receiver from orbit why didn't they just fire from an orbital position :rolleyes:).

    Bob