Pegasus and TATV

Discussion in 'Enterprise' started by Bad Thoughts, Jun 6, 2014.

  1. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Commodore Commodore

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    Why was Pegasus chosen as the vehicle in which TATV would be contextualized? Other than the fact that the episode focuses on Riker, and Frakes was imminently available, I find it an odd choice. First, it's an RDM episode. Second, it's among those episodes that RDM undermined the rectitude of a SF character, something I think Berman would have resisted. Third, I would think that it validates RDM's own opinions about character conflict by drawing upon an episode that he wrote. As far as I can tell, Moore has said nothing about the Enterprise finale, and I doubt he would have expressed an opinion.
     
  2. Shat Happens

    Shat Happens Captain Captain

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    what's that?
     
  3. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Commodore Commodore

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    An episode written by Ronald D. Moore.
     
  4. Lance

    Lance Commodore Commodore

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    See, this is interesting. Has anybody ever asked RDM for his opinion on the Enterprise episode? Because I'd be genuinely fascinated to hear what he has to say about the way it butchered his original story.
     
  5. trekker670

    trekker670 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think the fact that it did have to do with an antagonistic SF character, and how our main character who was close to him reacted, made it a better candidate as a launching point for the episode. The episode is based on Riker making this decision of whether to do what is "right" or to remain loyal to his former CO. You couldn't have done this with many episodes of TNG.
     
  6. od0_ital

    od0_ital Admiral Admiral

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    It still doesn't make sense for the ENT finale to be set durin' TNG 'Pegasus'.

    Rewatch the TNG episode, and then try to figure out just when Riker had all that time to spend on the holodeck. Plus, the episode itself already had a scene where Riker questioned his conscience after time on the holodeck with Worf.

    They should have gone with Jonathan Frakes & Marina Sirtis bein' older, and set the story post-NEM.
     
  7. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Commodore Commodore

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    Yes, post Nemesis would have been better. However, if they were set on a TNG episode, wouldn't another have been better? Maybe o follow up to Frame of Mind, a Braga episode? (Ignoring all the other problems with the episode, of course. )
     
  8. od0_ital

    od0_ital Admiral Admiral

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    ^

    'Frame of Mind' had enough holobullcrap goin' on, too.

    Maybe instead of tryin' to tie ENT in with TNG, they should have just written a proper finale for the series. If they had to have Jonathan Frakes & Marina Sirties, why not let 'em play new characters in the 22nd century?
     
  9. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    But the problem is that how Riker comes to the conclusion to do the "right thing" in TATV is not the reason why Riker decides to do the "right thing" in the original episode. He doesn't come to that conclusion until he goes aboard the Pegasus with Pressman and sees all his dead crewmates.
     
  10. Lance

    Lance Commodore Commodore

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    Yeah, like others have said already the problem with TATV is that "The Pegasus" was already too perfectly self-contained for this to actually work.

    It's arguably one of the worst episodes they could've chosen.

    In fact, if they were going to 'go retro' and do an episode with Riker and Troi messing about on a holodeck recreation of Archer's ship, I'd have sooner seen it as an original adventure set at some indeterminate time during TNG, rather than being tied to a specific episode from the era.

    The idea isn't bad, but the execution sucks -- *ESPECIALLY* as a series finale. :vulcan:
     
  11. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The inherent problem is also that, besides the sequence of events not equating to the original episode, Riker should be walking around in Depends undergarments because he should be shitting in his pants about the fact that he was involved in a conspiracy and could potentially be court-martialed. Instead, he's fucking around in the holodeck during one of the most important missions of his life.

    Now if Riker was just doing research about the NX-01 crew for some other reason, that might have worked better. But placing it in the context of "The Pegasus" was just silly. Why they didn't just put him and Troi on the Titan post-Nemesis boggles my mind.
     
  12. Lance

    Lance Commodore Commodore

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    I can understand, even appreciate, the vibe they were going for -- even if Frakes and Sirtis can not pass for themselves a decade earlier :D -- the idea was obviously to hit the same fanservice buttons as "In A Mirror Darkly" by rebuilding the good old 1701-D sets again, seeing the TNG uniforms on screen one more time and so on. I can appreciate that idea. :) But where it stretches credibility just that slight bit too far for me is in tying it so emphatically to "The Pegasus". It just doesn't work. :(

    I remember seeing an interview with either Berman or Braga where they audaciously tried to claim that it "seamlessly fits into the events of the older episode"... uh, no guys, it so doesn't. :vulcan:

    As I said, the idea would be validated (IMO) if it were a mid-season sweeps episode or something, and the premise was just some thing where Riker and Troi are goofing off in the holodeck at some indeterminate random point in TNG's run. That'd actually be kinda fun. ;) But it doesn't work as an extension of "The Pegasus", and it most certainly doesn't work as a series finale for Enterprise.
     
  13. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    For episodes where Riker would need to consult the holodeck, rather than just one of the other main characters, in order to come up with some sort of a serious decision, the list is short indeed. The episode would have to feature either

    a) Riker physically cut off from the other heroes or
    b) Riker emotionally cut off from the other heroes

    and in the former case (say, "Gambit"), he probably wouldn't have access to a holodeck! Perhaps Thomas Riker, stranded on that planet for all those years, might have used a local holodeck for soul-searching, possibly finding consolation in what happened to the ENT heroes in the "TATV" story or some other ENT story the writers could have come up with. But that wouldn't have been much of a connect to TNG, considering how peripheral Tom Riker was to the show.

    So we need an emotional or ethical disconnect. What do we have? Siding with Worf in one of the Klingon's criminal endeavors of vengeance (say, "Reunion" or "Birthright")? But Riker never took an active part or made a decision in such episodes, that we would know of.

    Pondering whether to bail out Wesley in "The First Duty"? But he didn't, and the story of him deciding not to would be a bit silly. Even more so when considering the episode was all about Wesley making the big decisions.

    Pondering whether to bail out Wesley in "Justice", then? Too bad that he was basically stranded down on the planet most of the time...

    But Riker in the early seasons was a more active decider than later on, so perhaps we indeed should target that group, despite it being patently impossible for Frakes to look that young. Yet what judgement call of his would not have been lighting-fast but could have involved prevaricating on a holodeck? The only episode that took any appreciable length of time was "Pen Pals", and again we could at best have Riker decide that he will not expose Data's illegal communications and will act surprised when those are revealed.

    And Riker's decision in "The Icarus Factor" did not feature an emotional or ethical disconnect; if anything, it was an episode the least likely to see Riker shun contact with his (admittedly mostly barely year-old!) friends and instead trust a holographic Archer to sort out things for him.

    Also, "The Pegasus" really is the only time we catch Riker doing something seriously wrong and then coming off clean. All the other times he changes his mind, it's over something less significant, say, a romantic liaison - or something fantastically more significant, say, choosing not to become Q.

    Of course, as pointed out, using "The Pegasus" just plain doesn't work, due to the time concerns and the fact that the decision was explicitly made differently. But hey, they could have made the episode about the Pegasus instead! That is, an all-new story where Riker tries to resolve his feelings about the old incident, before the events of the episode, and again after it, rather than during it.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  14. od0_ital

    od0_ital Admiral Admiral

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    ^

    Before it wouldn't be an issue, since it was believed the ship had been lost.

    After wouldn't matter, since the events of the episode resolved his issues about the whole incident.
     
  15. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Surely it would be an issue regardless of the current status of the ship - Riker would be worried about having done the wrong thing, perhaps agonizing over it for years and years at an end. His whole career could be based on a lie! We could see him consulting Archer or whomever in the holodeck for the first half of the 2360s, until suddenly he would be confronted by his past for real.

    After the events of the episode, Riker would be facing the question of whether two wrongs really put things right again... He doesn't look like a merry man when the credits of "The Pegasus" roll!

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  16. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Commodore Commodore

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    Frame of Mind was not a holodeck episode, per se. Holographic technology was used to mess with Riker. On the other hand, the holodeck might finally be used as a therapeutic tool. (Which is not to say that the artifice bringing the two eras together would not still have problems, but that FoM leaves unresolved how Riker recovered.)

    There's really no argument that can be made that the TNG episode referenced must have a moral/ethical quandry. The only thing that TATV needed to establish was that the 22nd century was an inspiration for what happened in other incarnations of Trek. For that purpose, other Braga-written episodes may have served better. Moreover, odO_ital convincingly proves that Pegusus needed no further explanation, and that TATV contradicts what was shown in Pegusus.
     
  17. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    ...Except, of course, as pertains to this very thread, where the question concerns why a specific episode was paired with the "TATV" story. :p

    Pairing with some other ENT conclusion story could be done within a wide range of parameters; existing TNG stories that could have Riker playing the Chef aboard NX-01 and finding solace in Trip's death are more difficult to come by. Clearly Riker must be very lost somehow!

    I certainly agree with at least three previous opinions: that "TNG heroes drawing inspiration from ENT" could have been done better by changing both halves of the story; that "The Pegasus" was the worst possible choice overall, no matter what the ENT half; and that the best possible TNG half would have been something previously unseen, taking place after the seven seasons of the TV show and somewhere in the TNG movie timeframe. But if we take the ENT half as a given and are stuck with using some TNG episode with a Riker theme, we really are shafted...

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  18. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Commodore Commodore

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    I never understood why fans can't just accept this episode for what it was - an almost "anything goes" approach, for the last show. I have not read interviews, or articles, or seen video of Frakes bitching about his experience on ENTERPRISE. I also know that celebrities say alot of shit just to make a colourful piece and generate some interest, that way. At the time - at the time - ENTERPRISE was much-aligned, and I'm certain that, in part, at least, this made Rick and company unconcerned with anything else but doing what they felt like, here.

    I will admit that Frakes and Siritis were long in the tooth, by this time, so the reality of him looking haggard and her being portly did distract from their characterisations, occassionally. But, I have to say, it was great to see them, again. As to why "Pegasus," was settled on as the Causitive Link, I wouldn't hazard a guess. But I don't really care, either. It served as an excuse to bring two of my favourite STAR TREK actors together on the screen and I'm really glad about that. It's very comforting and makes Trip's getting killed more tolerable, from a fan perspective. Otherwise, I really enjoyed this outing ...
     
  19. gblews

    gblews Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Why would Frakes have bitched about being in the episode? It was another chance to get before the cameras, something that hadn't been happening much (for him or Sirtis) since TNG left the air. What Frakes did do was eventually acknowledge that TaTV was a bad way for Ent as a series, to go out.

    An "anything goes" attitude is hardly the reason we got TaTV featuring the overweight "Imzadi" twins. As part of their quest for high ratings for the episode and disregard for Ent fans and cast, the Beebs chose TNG characters because, they reasoned, tapping into the vast TNG audience be the second best chance for ratings after Shatner, who they couldn't get. It didn't matter that tying Ent to TNG made no sense, and thus the shoehorning of Pegusus, because the focus was on ratings and NOT giving the loyal Ent fans a great final episode.

    So, many TNG fans are quite happy to see Riker and Troi flouncing around again even though they appear in a historically bad episode made even worse by their presence.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2014
  20. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Commodore Commodore

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    Let us not be so dismissive over Jonathan Frakes' many accomplishements within the STAR TREK franchise. First and foremost, he's a solid performer. Second, he's directed quite a bit of STAR TREK, including the biggest Box Office Hit, up until that time: FIRST CONTACT. Without a doubt, one of this franchises best movies. So far, so good. And lastly, ENTERPRISE was not his first guest appearance on another series other than The Next Generation. These episodes on DS9 & VOY saw their ratings go Sky High - thanks, specifically, to Frakes' participation! In fact, it could be argued that, because of this "precedent," Frakes was actually overdue for an appearance on an episode of your precious ENTERPRISE.


    [RIGHT]"...............................Overweight 'Imzadi' twins."[/RIGHT]


    Right out of the pen, ENTERPRISE had been presented without the STAR TREK moniker, whilst utilizing practically every popular element of it. The temerity of this decision did not go unnoticed or unappreciated by fans and wisely, ENT applied the label in response to it. Like it, or lump it, this series' deinal of its STAR TREKian ties, origins and connections demanded a tie-in of some sort, eventually. Again, TATV was long over-due, for that very reason ... so let's not hear talk of any supposed "disregard of ENT fans," here, because of TNG's involvement.


    You're right, finally. Your'e absolutely right: I am happy that Riker and Troi got to right the wrong of ENT's trying to pretend like it had nothing at all to do with "STAR TREK." And I'm really happy that Riker & Troi resolved a deeper, personal crisis going on in their timeline, thanks to a particular NX-O1 mission they referenced. To see my favourite STAR TREK pairing button-up and have the last say on STAR TREK television is very apt, indeed. And I find that most satisfying ...

    :cool:

    [RIGHT]"...............................flouncing around."[/RIGHT]
     

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