OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by Captain Tracy, Nov 8, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Uxi

    Uxi Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2011
    Location:
    Southern California
    Though it's of dubious canon since it was never filmed, the backstory for Xon seems relevant, as well as the canon mention of the Intrepid being an all Vulcan crew and that most of the Vulcans in Starfleet (if not the Federation) were effectively segregated. Spock was unique because when he was with Vulcans, he was identified as human and while he was with humans, he was identified as Vulcan.

    Too bad the idea of pure Vulcans being more distinct was abandoned. As was noted recently, Harry Mudd recognized him as part "Vulcanian"....
     
  2. throwback

    throwback Captain Captain

    Joined:
    May 27, 2011
    The chart identifies the ships as star ships, and, thus, the majority of the ships of the Enterprise-type were docked at Starbase 11 for repairs and maintenance. It's possible that when the Enterprise visited the starbase, Starfleet was not at war with anyone and Starfleet Command decided to have their capital ships undergo maintenance. I am thinking of Pearl Harbor here where the US Navy decided to berth nearly 50% of its active battleships at Pearl Harbor in the halcyon year of 1941.

    I think it was a missed opportunity when the CBS digital team chose not to emulate the Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards seen in "Relativity". :(
     
  3. Captain Tracy

    Captain Tracy Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2011
    Location:
    OMEGA IV
    Very interesting theories and viewpoints from everyone. One thing about Trek that is amazing is that they give you enough meat to postulate various scenarios and connections, and yet there are often holes big enough to drive a Starship through, and then sometimes, you get this little glitch which hangs the whole thing up,.. until you start the process again,... Lesbian Vulcan Starship Captains in Go-go boots on the Bridge,... well, I'll say one thing,... it DOES explain a lot LOL!!!

    THROWBACk, that is a pretty tidy theory you came up with, and perhaps the ENTERPRISE was not the only ship effected by the same ion storm,... perhaps the storm had been traveling, and the ENTERPRISE was just ONE of many other Starships effected and damaged by it, and that is why they all pulled in for repairs around the same time.

    You know it is also interesting what you are saying about Pearl Harbor, as I have heard a 'theory' that the US GOVERNMENT knew about the impending attack, and that is why all those ships were there,.. however the 'theory' goes something along the lines that they let this go down the way it did, to set up a "He hit me first" scenario in the public eye, yet fully intending to engage in the war, but letting the Japanese provide the excuse.
     
  4. 7thsealord

    7thsealord Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2011
    Location:
    Australia
    Totally works for me. ;)

    The Pearl Harbour Conspiracy Theory has always been popular in certain quarters but, for anyone with a clue, it is ... well, consider.

    The theory is that FDR was so desperate to drag the USA into ww2 that he deliberately "sacrificed" the US Pacific Fleet to the Japanese, in order to provoke national outrage. After all, he had already sent a few small US ships "into harms way" in the North Atlantic, causing several incidents with Nazi Germany. There are also the warnings that the USA ignored from just about everybody imaginable. The 'Pearl Harbour Conspiracy Theory' seems plausible, until the facts are considered.

    First, FDR's main priority was always the defeat of Nazi Germany. They and Imperial Japan were technically allies, but war with one did not guarantee involvement of the other (as evidenced when Germany kicked things off in 1939). In fact, Germany's declaration of war upon the US, made in the immediate aftermath of Pearl Harbour, came as a shock to many on BOTH sides.

    Secondly, a common misconception seems to be that Pearl Harbour was the only thing Japan did to enter ww2. Wrong! Japanese forces went on the move all over South-East Asia and the Pacific. Attacks were made on the British Commonwealth (Hong Kong, Malaya, Borneo, and numerous islands), on the US-held Philippines, and on US-administered islands such as the Marshalls, Guam, and Wake. Any one of these constituted an act of war and, given Japan's numerous atrocities in China, war would have been hard to avoid.

    Thirdly, that all the warnings about an impending attack came to naught is strange, I accept. But, is it truly THAT strange? The warnings filtered through several different US government departments, most of which barely knew each other existed and seldom exchanged data in any case. FBI boss J Edgar Hoover was the recipient of at least one direct warning from the British, but chose to see it as a personal insult rather than take any action.

    Many in the West genuinely believed that the typical Japanese soldier was five foot tall, severely near-sighted, afraid of the dark, lacked combat ability, and used inferior ships and planes. General Douglas Macarthur talked of "setting the bamboo cities of Japan ablaze" with the (twelve) B-17 bombers he had in the Philippines. Hardly the mindsets to take warnings of a Japanese attack seriously.

    So, the main allegation is that FDR sacrificed a fleet of obsolescent battleships (plus crews), but took special care to move the essential aircraft carriers out of danger. This notion totally ignores the strategic naval thinking of the time. Staunch carrier advocates existed on both sides, but most were relatively junior and all were regarded as at least slightly loony. The top brass in the RN, the USN, and the IJN still regarded battleships as all-important - and aircraft carriers as a very experimental adjunct to the hallowed Line Of Battle. This was despite the notable early successes of the Royal Navy's Fleet Air Arm (at Taranto and versus the Bismarck) - noting also that Taranto was the inspiration for the Pearl Harbour attack.

    Understand that the Pearl Harbour attack was seen by the Japanese as a major gamble, and the final results a "best case scenario". True, Kido Butai (the Japanese carrier force) could have done better by following up and destroying port facilities and/or a US carrier or two. But such a move would have greatly compounded the risk of counterattack from US forces. Given the initial (and seemingly overwhelming) success, and that the fleet was at the very limits of its logistical support, Admiral Nagumo (rightly or wrongly) chose discretion by ordering the withdrawal as originally planned.

    They had sunk / crippled the USN's entire Pacific battleship force. Major Win. Couldn't find the carriers? Annoying, but maybe next time. After all, those Yankee carriers had no battleships to protect them from now on.

    That any semi-competent leader would begin a war by throwing away his primary means of attack and defence, just to satisfy a vague need to claim provocation, is simply insane. Whatever his faults, FDR was a very shrewd and pragmatic man. If he suspected that the Japanese were about to attack Hawaii, then I have no doubt that the US would have been ready and waiting for them.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2011
  5. siskokid888

    siskokid888 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2006
    Location:
    Either Quark's, or a bar on St. Mark's Place
    You mentioned that you hated Commodore Stone (Court Martial). I don't see why. He seemed to be a squared away symbol of Starfleet authority, and I don't see how, from the video evidence, he could have drawn any other conclusion than that Kirk was guilty. He even offers Kirk a way out. Seems like a decent guy to me.
     
  6. Captain Tracy

    Captain Tracy Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2011
    Location:
    OMEGA IV
    Hey there SISKO,

    I am glad you asked about Commodore STONE. You are correct on his overall 'appearance', and yes, under normal circumstances, he must be an outstanding Officer, however,...

    What STONE is actually offering KIRK is "the blind eye - no scandals" routine. STONE is not interested in THE TRUTH, and in point-of-fact, he is very motivated to not to even have the TRUTH examined for fear it might tarnish the illusion he and his cronies cling to.

    Furthermore, he is asking KIRK to become a part of that illusion; not just at the cost of his career and reputation, but to embrace these corrupt morals.

    Then to make matters worse, when KIRK resists his 'kind suggestion' - which is making a deal with the Devil - STONE uses (abuses, really) and wields his full scope of powers and authority-not to bring TRUTH to light-but to cover it up, and send KIRK out on the rails, as it were.

    AND WHAT IF the tapes were correct and KIRK was truly negligent in FINNEY's death,... how would KIRK taking the 'Masonic Handshake' deal offered him, as a "Desk Assignment, with no scandals" PROVIDE FOR JUSTICE FOR FINNEY???

    STONE is corrupt to the core, and dangerous to boot, as he has all the power and authority to act in corrupt self-interest at the expense of the individual human.

    So when you draw the analogy to modern-day political/social/religious scandals, and how the "old boy network" covers for each other at the expense of TRUTH and JUSTICE, and they will to actively abuse their positions of authority and destroy others who threaten their corrupt infra-structure or in STONE'S own words: "Tarnish the reputation of Starfleet",...

    When the fact is, what STONE is offering KIRK and how he handles the whole thing is more 'tarnishing' than anything.

    Bottom line, STONE is simply a corrupt bureaucrat in the guise of a sterling Officer, and that is why I 'double hate' him.

    Weee,... glad I got that off my chest LOL!

    Thanks for asking Sisko.
     
  7. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Real Me Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2001
    Location:
    Down in the tube station at midnight
    Not sure that Spock was "the most famous Vulcan in Starfleet"

    He does seem to have a following of some kind on Vulcan, though.
     
  8. Captain Tracy

    Captain Tracy Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2011
    Location:
    OMEGA IV
    SISKO,... LOL!! you got me all wound up over Commodore STONE LOL!!!,... I am still ripping on this guy!!!! See, I told you I hated him! LOL! Which is REALLY tough for me, as this one of my favorite episodes! LOL!

    Here is the thing, IF STONE were truly honorable as he tries to play, the script should have gone down along these lines:

    STONE: Look Jim, I don't doubt your word, but the record tape clearly shows something entirely different than your deposition.

    KIRK: But that is not what happened,.. I had no grudge against Finney,... He was my friend.

    STONE: I understand you feel that way;... perhaps it's fatigue, you've been through hell,... out in deep space for a long time,... but as a Starfleet Flag Officer I am duty-bound to investigate, first and foremost,... no exceptions. I am sorry Jim.

    So it is exactly at the next moment when STONE 'offers the blind eye - sweep it under the rug - Masonic handshake' deal to KIRK, that is when he becomes a Villain, just another corrupt official usurping the system of Justice, "for the good of the image of the service",.. murder?,... what murder?

    The problem with doing it the way I have it scripted, is that there would then be NO CONFLICT of STONE vs. KIRK,... and therefore less drama, and STONE is not as interesting as a character or plot device.

    The way it was done (being the correct way) these two look like they are about to have a fist-fight,.. which is great!, as now their conflict is PERSONAL,.. and STONE looks like he can definitely kick some butt too!

    So all in all,... it is superior scripting and charactersation, but my teeth just grind when STONE gets all sleazy with his 'let's make a deal' corruption,... no wonder Kirk want to punch him! LOL!

    And think about Finney's daughter, sobbing away,... how do you think she would feel knowing the high-and-mighty Commodore STONE tried to cut a private side-deal with KIRK, knowing full well what he saw on the computer playback,.. and treat her DEAD dear old Dad - who gave his life to the service - as a pile of broom sweepings, so the image of 'The Service" could avoid potential scandal,....

    I wonder if Don Mankiewicz was trying to make an allusion for all those families who had to cope with B.S. cover-up letters and High-Ranking Officer 'condolence visits' to their homes regarding the "death of their son in Viet Nam",.. when in fact the son was a POW/MIA captured or wounded in Cambodia,... but so 'The Service' could save face, the facts, and the son, and all the Finneys of the world get swept under the rug too.

    And the Generals exchange Masonic handshakes with a 'wink-and-a-nod' at the Officer Club cocktail parties, while all the Finney-widows weep away their days.

    AND MAYBE,... that is all I have to say about STONE,... maybe,.... LOL!!!!
     
  9. DakotaSmith

    DakotaSmith Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2001
    Location:
    Redfield, Iowa, USA
    Well, that's at least implied by T'Pau officiating at Spock's wedding.

    Well, Sarek said in "Journey To Babel" that marrying Amanda "seemed like the logical thing to do."

    At my age and marital experience, I've come to assume that it probably was the "logical" thing to do -- if you're the Vulcan Ambassador to the Federation and you've knocked up some Earth girl.

    In point of fact, knowing what we do about Vulcan mating habits, it was probably "logical" on a number of levels. Taking into account Star Trek V:

    Sarek had an arranged first marriage to an unnamed "Vulcan princess." She died. Now Sarek is faced with a life-or-death problem at his next Ponn Farr.

    I figure that he must have been seeing Amanda when his Ponn Farr came around. Sleeping with (and later marrying) her would be logical in order to save his life and then prevent being faced with a life-or-death mating problem in seven years.

    Given that Vulcans hate even discussing their biology with anyone, this is one way I can imagine a politician overcoming the whole scandal. It was life-or-death, and Sarek made the logical choice under the circumstances.

    There's always a difference between what locals think of a politician compared the the country. For example, I think of former Nebraska Governor (and later Senator) Bob Kerry as Debra Winger's ex-boyfriend. That's because growing up in Nebraska, that was Kerry's claim to fame locally. I have no idea what people outside Nebraska think of him -- if they think of him at all. I'm pretty sure they don't think of him as Debra Winger's old boyfriend. ;)

    Dakota Smith
     
  10. Captain Tracy

    Captain Tracy Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2011
    Location:
    OMEGA IV
    Dakota LOL!!! You, my friend, are waaaay over-due for shore-leave, first with the Lesbain Vulcan Captains in Go-Go Boots, and now, Debra Winger,.. Debra Winger,... how the heck did we get from Pearl Harbor to Debra Winger ?!!!? LOL!!! Have to say it,.. never would I guess I'd be reading about Debra Winger on Trek board,... strange new worlds, to be sure!! DEBRA WINGER??? LOL!!

    Seriously, I just did a read on an old post of yours on GR's responsibility,... amazing read,... as was 7THSEAS Pearl harbor read, so c'mon now, focus,.. LOL!!

    I'd really like hear what both you and 7THSEA have to say on Commodore Stone.
     
  11. DakotaSmith

    DakotaSmith Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2001
    Location:
    Redfield, Iowa, USA
    Well, he's kind of a weasel ... but to be honest, that's the kind of white-washing that goes on from time to time in real life.

    Had Jack Webb produced Star Trek, we would no doubt have had a conversation about how Kirk can't be excused from prosecution and that it's only fair. However, this was GR's Star Trek, so Stone wanted to sweep it under the rug rather than deal with a scandal.

    Having worked lots of places where this happened, I don't really fault Stone for it. It's common procedure when a scandal that might impact a company is involved. You deal with it internally, and you shut up about it otherwise.

    And besides, even though he's black, Commodore Stone could be a descendant of mine, so I have to be lenient with him. :D

    Dakota Smith
     
  12. Captain Tracy

    Captain Tracy Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2011
    Location:
    OMEGA IV
    Priceless,... Jack Webb producing Star Trek,... Daa, daa, duum, duum, dee,.... What a concpet! LOL!!!

    Talk about the Totalitarian Federation of Planets!!! Complete with not one, but two,... count 'em TWO security guards in every room and hallway! LOL!

    You know Dakota, you are right of course; it is a sad fact of everyday life in the corporate sector, the military, and such,.. but I guess what gets me is that the whole TREK premise is based, and touts,.. oh how it touts,... the whole, everyone is equal, justice for all, we have evolved beyond all THAT,... so when you encounter a high-acting character like STONE, who then reveals himself to be a typical 21st century 'company man',... well, you know.

    "Commodore STONE a descendant of yours"???,... Did anyone every tell you're a wise-@ss Dakota LOL!!!!!!!!

    Seriously, thanks for the feedback,..... Jack Webb producing,.. my head is buoyant at the thought!
     
  13. J.T.B.

    J.T.B. Rear Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2005
    I am with the gist of your comments but I have to disagree on that point. By 1941 the US Navy had some very senior leaders who were not only enthusiastic about aviation but in positions do do something about it. A carrier admiral, Joseph M. Reeves, had reached the position of Commander-in-Chief US Fleet back in 1934. Another, Harry Yarnell, had commanded the Asiatic Fleet in the buildup of tension with Japan including the Panay incident. At the time of Pearl Harbor, another carrier admiral, Ernest King, was leading the quasi-war with U-boats as CinC Atlantic Fleet, and would soon be called upon to take command of the entire wartime US Navy. One of the navy's three vice admiral slots was reserved for the fleet carrier command, equal to the fleet battleships. The Navy Bureau of Aeronautics had a strong presence in Washington, more powerful than any comparable body in the UK or Japan (or the War Department).

    The Fleet Problems of the 1930s had dramatically demonstrated to all but the most hidebound members of the Gun Club that naval aviation was too important to be a sideline. How carriers should be operate with the battle line was still being worked out, but the USN was well on its way to being an "air navy" at the time of Pearl Harbor. Appropriations for aircraft and air training in the late '30s and the positioning of key aviation leaders in important fleet posts laid much of the groundwork that enabled the USN to defeat the Japanese carrier force at Midway (which wasn't pure luck as some like to say).

    Aside from the fine points made earlier, a FDR Pearl Harbor conspiracy doesn't make sense by simple logic: Once the armed Japanese planes enter T.H. airspace, there's the casus belli, they don't have to sink anything. The forewarned battle fleet could have steamed out Saturday night and left an empty harbor and FDR would still have justification for war.


    Justin
     
  14. DakotaSmith

    DakotaSmith Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2001
    Location:
    Redfield, Iowa, USA
    Actually, I had fans give me that gag back in the 1970s by virtue of my last name. The subtext made it -- at that time -- a bit more scandalous.

    I'm extremely white and rarely even tan; Commodore Stone is obviously a black man. Other fans would giggle and occasionally joke about how I must be going to marry a black girl some day. ;)

    My response was always, "Absolutely. I'm going to marry Nichelle Nichols."

    As I say, in the 1970s it was a bit more scandalous than it would be now. However, the gag didn't originate with me, but other fans. Blame Star Base Andromeda -- I've just been repeating it for 35 years. :D

    Dakota Smith
     
  15. Captain Tracy

    Captain Tracy Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2011
    Location:
    OMEGA IV
    Damn,.. that is impressive! You know guys, I know nothing about WWII, so your whole thing is literally blowing me away, it is awesome, but I am clueless,... it is fascinating though, I wonder how it might play as a TREK script,... interesting, indeed!

    DAKOTA - 'rarely even tan',... your KILLING me here LOL!!!!!
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2011
  16. 7thsealord

    7thsealord Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2011
    Location:
    Australia
    Points very well taken, and I certainly was not denigrating the USN. But the Battleship mentality was still very strong despite these changes - hence the move of stationing a buttload of battleships ready to move against Japan. As regards the state of the US carriers in 1941, while changes were on the way they were only "just" getting rid of the godawful 'Brewster Buffalo' fighter, for example.

    Consider the IJN, who arguably had an equal if not somewhat stronger carrier fleet (at least on paper). This was kept incredibly busy in the early stages of the Pacific War, raiding as far south as Darwin and as far east as Ceylon. The majority of Japan's battlehips, however? They (including the superbattleships Yamato and Musashi) were nicknamed the "Hashirajima Fleet", because they spent most of the war at that port - mainly waiting for the huge Jutland-style "decisive battle" with the USN that the IJN's Admiralty was CERTAIN would come. But it never did - at least, not as they thought it would.

    .... And, yes, the US victory at Midway was not pure luck. It can be argued quite solidly that nearly all the mistakes made before or during the battle were by the Japanese. Fuchida himself admits this in a book he co-wrote post-war. But luck was still pretty derned important. As is often the case.
     
  17. 7thsealord

    7thsealord Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2011
    Location:
    Australia
    I don't buy that Sarek married Amanda because he knocked her up. For them to produce a child would (IMO) have required far more medical intervention than simply forgetting about birth control. Are we forgetting about copper-based blood versus iron-based blood? And that is just for starters. It is amazing enough that Humans and Vulcans are so sexually compatible despite their differances, without deciding that they can successfully interbreed without a heckuva lot of outside help.

    I believe "It was the logical thing to do..." was partly humour on Sarek's part (especially given where / when / how this line is used). Yes, we have seen several Vulcans who have displayed a sense of humour - that is why they make such great straight men. Mostly, though, it was (IMO) Sarek's way of saying that personal feelings (they loved each other) dive-tailed very nicely with The Big Picture (encouraging Humans and Vulcans to get along).

    *****

    Regarding Commodore Stone. Not a lot I have to say here. His "offer" to Kirk may seem odious to some, but it wasn't like he was calling for facts to be changed. If Jim Kirk had stepped up, admitted his guilt and taken what was coming (loss of command, etc.), then a messy expensive (in manpower, anyhow) trial and (more than likely) a load of paperwork would be avoided.

    Plus, Commodore Stone probably (at that very early stage) saw the offence as errors in judgement and/or some kind of aberration on Jim Kirk's part, rather than as deliberate murder. He was a brilliant officer, and no good would have been served (to the deceased, Star Fleet, the Federation or Kirk himself) by nailing him to a cross (so to speak). Kirk (as far as could be determined) had clearly done The Wrong Thing, or a couple of same, and had to account for that - but that did not equate with going all 'Old Testament' and destroying him completely.

    One sees this happen in trials, and for good reason. Admit your guilt, and it takes the onus off the court trying to prove whether or not you did the deed. The punishment is usually more lenient (even if only slightly) in such cases.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2011
  18. J.T.B.

    J.T.B. Rear Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2005
    I agree except for one thing: The "Captain Dunsel" remark. That really knocks him down in my estimation. To utter such a petty comment, demeaning an officer publicly in front of his crew, was disgraceful.

    Those comments on Como. Stone are definitely hard to argue with. I think sometimes we may be too quick to accept that kind of back-room deal as just "something that happens" with powerful people. OTOH the whole thing should make us question Starfleet's justice system: Why are the investigator, the board of inquiry, the court-martial's convening authority, and the president of the court all the same person, Stone? That's like a criminal case where the same guy is the police detective, the DA, the judge and the jury. I understand why it works dramatically, but at the same time it keeps me from getting too het up over Stone's corruption.

    I think of him as the disabled combat veteran and Medal of Honor recipient who was a Democratic senator for many years and was Debra Winger's old boyfriend.

    Agreed, it was just the "relatively junior" and "slightly looney" comments I took issue with.


    Justin
     
  19. Anachronus

    Anachronus Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2001
    Location:
    New Orleans, La. - LGD if you must know.
    You should read Paschall and Tully's "Shattered Sword" which is the best book on Midway to come out in a long while. Fuchida frankly lied in his book to save "face". It would be interesting to speculate on what would have happened if he had been right, i.e. the Japanese strike groups being on the flight deck rather than in the hangers when the USN dive bombers hit.
     
  20. Anachronus

    Anachronus Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2001
    Location:
    New Orleans, La. - LGD if you must know.
    Sorry that last post is WAAAAAAY OT, just an amateur naval historian babbling on.
    :)
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.