Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Yminale, Jul 9, 2013.

  1. Set Harth

    Set Harth Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    So, the best way to "treat everybody equally" is to not elevate (allegedly) monogamist homosexuals to the position currently held by (allegedly) monogamist heterosexuals?
     
  2. Mr. Adventure

    Mr. Adventure Admiral Admiral

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    The government isn't required to get married, just don't expect them to step in with any benefits or divorce settlements and the like.
     
  3. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    Do you or don't you think homosexuals deserve to be treated equally under current marriage laws? Quit tap dancing.
     
  4. Professor Zoom

    Professor Zoom Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'm not going to get to involved in this, as it obviously, is taking us off topic... but...

    Those who don't have the rights and privileges, those who are considered 2nd class citizens, would say otherwise. That said, I do agree with you that marriage means different things to different people, however, there is a LEGAL definition of marriage--that along with it goes a bunch of rights, privileges and contract law.

    Like there is a legal definition of adult--which also has a bunch of rights, privileges and contract law...


    They may have the same basic rights, but, factually, they don't have ALL the same rights as every straight human. For example, in many states, they can't adopt. Simply because they are gay.

    And if they have the same basic rights, why are some people fighting SO hard to stop them from having them?

    Putting morality aside, because, morality is flexible, having laws that grants rights and privileges to a partner makes things a lot easier. Like, for example, what if someone dies expectantly and there's no will? Easy: the partner gets the estate. Because there is a legal history to rights and privileges to marriage, government is involved to be the mediator.

    I don't quite understand why you think it's unbalanced and unfair... what's unfair? That you, as a single person, I assume, can't make life and death decisions for the girl or guy you've been dating for two months? Or that you don't get your girl friend or boy friend's stuff when they die unexpectedly without a will?

    What right or privilege of marriage do you as a single person want to take advantage of but can't?

    If it's a privilege, why only straight people get to have it? What do gay men and women have to do to earn the "privilege" of getting married?
     
  5. Sindatur

    Sindatur Vice Admiral Admiral

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    No, of course it's not OK, but Marriage is a method of declaring you are committed and what's yours is theirs, there are times when you need absolute proof. You can't just make it a free for all when any old Tom Dick or Mary comes in off the street and makes claims. It doesn't need to be called Marriage, but, there has to be some undeniable Legality for the person you've chosen to give those rights to, if people don't avail themselves of it (When not locked out) how can they prove it?
     
  6. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I believe that two wrongs don't make a right, and that the idea of gay marriage only shines a light on how outdated the concept of marriage truly is. Marriage as it is primarily exists is a breeding program, with the benefits being something to lure people in to it. Without the breeding aspect, I think it becomes utterly irrelevant, elitist, and absurd. The majority of new marriages end in divorce, as the concept is wholey outdated as it stands. I've no idea why the gay community should wish to re-organise themselves in a fashion akin to that of a heterosexual breeding structure. I think there is nothing progressive about it, and it is as conservative as it gets.

    There is my answer to you, sir.
     
  7. Sindatur

    Sindatur Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The Government is involved to enforce the Contract, because it's not just between the spouses, it's between the Spouses and Society honoring the rights of your commitment

    You're absolutely right, the Gpvernment shouldn't be involved in who you select as your partner, they should only enforce your contract of marriage when you need them to. If they let anyone enter that contract, they have nothing to do with your selection of who it is.
     
  8. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    And the tap dancing continues because it was a basic 'yes' or 'no' question. So I'll take it that you don't think homosexuals deserve the same treatment as straight people under current laws.
     
  9. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Hurray, the intellectually-lazy homophobia card is played at the table once more.

    Re-read my posts. I am treating heterosexual and homosexual couples in precisely the same way. If I wished for government involvement in heterosexual marriage to be abolished.. why the fuck would I be pro- gay marriage? It doesn't even the playing field giving two groups of people special privileges. It evens the playing field by taking the special privileges away.
     
  10. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    But you didn't answer the question about current conditions and treatment.

    Here is how I see it: you tap dance because you don't believe homosexuals deserve the same treatment under current laws. You obfuscate because you know there's absolutely no chance that current marriage laws will ever be repealed.

    So you can claim to take the moral high-ground while being comfortable in the knowledge that some people are denied rights that are available to others.

    So. Do they deserve the same treatment under current laws?
     
  11. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    What an absolutely ridiculous interpretation of my posts.
     
  12. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    Yet you still haven't answered the question about current laws...
     
  13. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I'm not going to dignify it with a response, and I think it was a thoroughly reprehensible, dishonest thing to imply. You know very well I am arguing against the legal institution of marriage for all sexual orientations, and not against gay rights. I fight for gay rights, I just don't view marriage as a right, so it doesn't come in to play.
     
  14. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    But the question isn't about marriage. It's about whether or not homosexuals should be treated fairly under current laws including marriage laws.
     
  15. Avon

    Avon Commodore Commodore

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    what trying to get dalekjim to answer the question you actually asked is like

    [yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KHMO14KuJk[/yt]
     
  16. Sindatur

    Sindatur Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Marriage was invented as a Contract of inheritance, to ensure the proper flow of your estate upon passing. You can make babies without being married.

    Let's try this another way, what is in marriage now, that you want gone, and what do you want to put into a Contract, just between the two of you, that the Government has no enforcement duties for, and how are you going to enforce it, with a gun?

    Tax benefits, I got no problem eliminating, so take that off the table, and tell me how your Contract is different than "marriage allowed for all" and how do you make a Contract without the Government backing?
     
  17. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well, I obviously think marriage shouldn't be a legal institution, but if gays did enter in to it then their marriages should be treated exactly the same under law as heterosexual marriages, as I don't believe in discrimination on the grounds of sexuality.

    I thought this would be incredibly obvious from my posts.

    I think marriage should be a purely personal agreement between two people, with no outside enforcement involved.
     
  18. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    Then how do you resolve disputes?

    And it's good to know that you believe that homosexuals should be allowed to marry under current laws.
     
  19. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    What?
     
  20. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    I thought the question was pretty straight-forward.
     

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