Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by chrinFinity, Sep 3, 2012.

  1. chrinFinity

    chrinFinity Captain Captain

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    I'm thinking Armus might have been either an exiled founder, who got all oily and evil while he was still with the Link, or alternatively one of the Hundred who maybe got psionically shit on by a civilization of telepaths or empaths and then thrown away?

    Anyone else had thoughts to this effect?

    Christin
     
  2. Mr_Homn

    Mr_Homn Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    It's something I've always liked to imagine and wonder about as well, although I think if I ever heard an official answer it would take some of the fun out of it. Armus is one of my favorite TNG bad guys, and not just because he killed Tasha. He was truly evil and pathetic.

    I also love his awesome theme music!



    From Memory Alpha:

    Armus was born as a by-product of a procedure in which a race of "titans" brought out from within themselves all evil and negative attributes that had bound them to destructiveness. The unwanted substance spread and coalesced into a dank and vile second skin.

    Yeah, I don't think the Founders brought out from within themselves all the evil and negative attributes they had. They seemed like pricks to me.

    Whoever left Armus there was some angelic do-gooder race when they left. I get the impression that when they left the evil/negative substance, they didn't foresee it coming together to form armus, and probably never realized his existence.. because knowing that, and not doing anything about it, would seem pretty callous to me.

    Star Trek Encyclopedia says the race that created Armus was native to Vagra II. So that rules out the Founders too, if it's to be believed. Maybe it was the metrons. With their immense power, they could be said to be "titans", and they seem to be pretty do gooder-ish. Well, maybe a little arrogant, but that's about it.

    [​IMG]

    In DS9, there is mention of a "metron consortium"... according to "Star Trek Star Charts" the metron consortium is in the beta quadrant. I can't find any information as to what quadrant Vagra II is in, though. Just that it's in the Zed Lapis sector

    I guess Vagra II's quadrant would be irrelevent, though, since the original inhabitants obviously don't live on Vagra II anymore.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2012
  3. chrinFinity

    chrinFinity Captain Captain

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    What if... the Great Link, long before the dominion, evolved on Vagra II, and then learned to improve themselves by leaving the negative hateful pitiable elements behind, boiling them up to the top and letting them dry out like tomato soup skin, and then the rest of them left the planet en masse?

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2]ARMUS [OC]: I am alone.
    TROI: Abandoned. Who deserted you?
    ARMUS [OC]: Creatures whose beauty now dazzles all who see them. They would not exist without me.
    TROI: You were together?
    ARMUS [OC]: They perfected a means of bringing to the surface all that was evil and negative within. Erupting, spreading, connecting. In time it formed second skin, dank and vile. [/SIZE][/FONT]

    The Great Link would then be spaceborne (which we already know they can do, migrate en masse), and leave the black oil behind to stew and eventually become Armus, who can't create a solid form complex enough to escape the planet's gravity or atmosphere (UNLIKE a normal changeling), but who *can* effect a certain degree of psionic capabilities, such as the telekinesis he uses to mess with the Away Team, and how he messed up the Shuttle's energy in the first place to force them to crash when they got too close in passing Vagra II. Whatever makes him pure evil also gives him those abilities, so it's something that the Changelings left in the Great Link can no longer do.

    THEN, much later in the future, the Great Link ends up in the Gamma Quadrant... And they try to integrate peacefully with solids at first, who mistreat them and hunt/kill them...

    THAT makes them insular, it makes them sit and seethe... they see themselves as more evolved than the solids, more "good," less "evil" and given that solids kill them, they feel suitably justified in their arrogance. So they decide, partly out of arrogance and partly out of self defence, to organize... to build a defence, to build an empire, as much to "guide" the solids as for their own good. And thus, the Domionion is born.

    They don't necessarily see themselves as evil, do they. They just look with intense disdain on solids, and they feel themselves superior - godlike. To them, their inherent superiority justifies their galactic mischief.

    What say you?
     
  4. Mr_Homn

    Mr_Homn Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Could be. I just feel the gamma quadrant is SO far away it would be very unlikely for them to travel there. Galaxy's a massive place. I'm still a bit of a DS9 newb myself, still working my way through the series, so I don't know enough about the founders I guess. I doubt their great link is warp capable while in space, though. But maybe they flew into a wormhole or something. Or maybe they are warp capable. Could they just shift into a warp engine? Eh I'm not really qualified to talk about the founders in depth. I need to finish the series :P

    With enough explanation it could work, and they already do share similar qualities (Shape shifting to an extent)... I think the psionic abilities thing is kind of a problem though. That's something the metrons have though.
     
  5. chrinFinity

    chrinFinity Captain Captain

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    Who knows, it could have taken them hundreds of years to get there. :) Or maybe they could go faster than maximum warp speeds... Laas has absolutely no problem catching up to Odo's runabout when Laas had taken the form of a spaceship to chase them. And that's just *one* changeling being a ship. If hundreds of them got together and organized into one giant warp propulsion system, who knows what they couldn't accomplish.
     
  6. Jono

    Jono Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    If Armus is all that is evil and destructive within than the Medusans, who have the most sublime thoughts, might be an okay fit as their creators.
     
  7. Ln X

    Ln X Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Nah that doesn't make any sense. The Founders hate all humanoids, and to be honest I don't think the Founders ever trusted the solids (going right back to the beginning), so clearly the Founders would have had some negative tendencies.

    And Mr. Homm, you're right about Armus being a great bad guy; he always gives me great laughs for being a man covered in tar and acting so ridiculously clichéd!
     
  8. Mr_Homn

    Mr_Homn Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Glad you enjoy him if in a different way. I always find him pitiable and end up feeling sorry for him during his terrifying screams when he knows hes going to once again be left alone to fester in his own hate, likely for centuries. he's a total asshole but its not like he ever had any choice. I wonder what the race who left him would feel knowing hes been suffering so long. If theyre such good guys they should at least put him out of his misery. In fact sometimes I wish thats what picard would do at the end.
     
  9. Tiberius

    Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    Ah, the race that created Armus was native to that planet, but that doesn't mean that Armus was! Perhaps Armus was one of the hundred, came across the Metrons on that world, and they discarded all their evilness and negativity onto him.

    I can't think of anything canon that would contradict this idea, with the possible exception that Laas could travel through space, so if Armus was a changeling as well, why couldn't he do it. But then, it's entirely possible that whatever change happened to him left him unable to travel through space.

    A very interesting idea.
     
  10. Mr_Homn

    Mr_Homn Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Sorry but its clearly stated that armus was BORN as a by product of their shedded "evil"

    He did not exist before they shed their negative attributes, they didnt dump their negativity onto a pre existing being. He was born from it. Thrn they left vagra 2, thereforr he was born on vagra 2
     
  11. Tiberius

    Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    Oh, come on. Trek has retconned worse than that before.

    Perhaps by "Born" Armus meant that he became the being he was when the Enterprise found him.
     
  12. Mr_Homn

    Mr_Homn Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Eh, you're right. In that case ben sisko is captain kirks grandson. Oh and spock founded section 31. hey theres been worse!
     
  13. Tiberius

    Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    That's not what I mean, and you know it.

    I'm talking about an interpretation of a line in a non-literal sense.
     
  14. Mr_Homn

    Mr_Homn Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Yeah but it doesn't make sense to me. If a race has become devoid of negative attributes, how could they be so cruel as to leave Armus alone like that to suffer for all eternity? Especially if it's someone they just happened to come across. That's even worse, because that would imply Armus wasn't as evil before as when they left him. I understand that they would still have the negative attributes before they hypothetically met this Armus fellow, but once they rid themselves of their negativity and evil, it would seem quite cruel for them to just leave him there suffering and not try and fix the situation, or fix him somehow.

    The history of armus only makes sense if the people who left him did so either before he came into consciousness, or before they were aware of his consciousness. That way, they are completely unaware of the suffering they have caused and their goodness is still intact. If they met some being, and turned him into an evil pile of sludge, and left him there to suffer, that goes against the whole idea of them having no evil within them. They would be total assholes, regardless of what kind of person armus was before they met him.

    As for the founders theory, it's too far of a reach for me that Armus could be an ex founder, or a remnant of the founders. Especially since he possesses telekinetic powers that they don't, and they live on complete opposite sides of the galaxy. He also says "those who left me dazzle all with their beauty" or whatever, and I don't really think there's anything particularly beautiful about the founders. They are just brown goo in their natural state... and as I said before, the founders have plenty of negative attributes. They are xenophobes who hate solids for the most part. Hate/racism is not really a positive attribute last time I checked.. It's just way too much of a reach for me, and it doesn't add up at all.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2012
  15. chrinFinity

    chrinFinity Captain Captain

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    When was Odo born? When the Founders shot him off into space in a tiny jar, or after Dr. Mora forced him into sentience? I can see Armus, if one of the hundred, being "born" among those he'd found on Vagra 2.
     
  16. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    But who's asking you? Significantly, Armus doesn't seem to seethe with racism/specieism, which may be taken to mean its creators considered it a positive attribute they wanted to keep. Which would jibe well with the Founders, who pride themselves on their racism/specieism, being the creators.

    We have little idea. Perhaps he was ten thousand years old when the Founders launched him, and would take another hundred thousand years to pass from infant to toddler?

    The timeline on the Armus case is vague as well. Certainly the planet that once harbored "titans" seems barren now, perhaps because Armus thrashed everything in rage, perhaps simply because the departure took place such a long time ago.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  17. Ln X

    Ln X Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The real question is do baby shapeshifters age if they're in those small tubules which carry them. Otherwise we may never know Odo's actual age because we have no idea how long he was adrift in space. Though perhaps Odo began to biologically age when he started to grow as Doctor Mora began experimenting upon him...

    And Armus can NOT possibly be a Founder because of the manner of his creation. Whichever beings created him did so from shedding off their negative tendencies, so Armus is the sum of all these being's disregarded evilness. So Armus was created by these beings which is totally consistent with the plot.

    Whereas what you are saying is that some stray shapeshifter (juvenile or not and possibly one of the hundred) came to this planet and then these race of beings transformed the shapeshifter into Armus. But that's inconsistent with how Armus said he was created.
     
  18. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    We can argue that Armus is simply taking poetic license here. Perhaps his parents simply blamed their child for all that was wrong in their marriage, and then left, seemingly much happier for the offloading of the psychological burden?

    Or, to use more Founder-like terms, perhaps a specific member in the Great Link was demonized for his opinions, and everything that was wrong in the Link was blamed on his dissent. He was then left behind when the Founders moved on to their next hideout world.

    Of course, we could safely assume that since Armus believes himself to be evil, he's also extensively lying; betrayal of trust is one of those things he feels is a natural part of his personality. So not only might he not be a skin of evil literally, he might also not be the result of events even vaguely similar to what he is describing.

    The true counterindications to Armus being a disgruntled and somewhat deranged Founder are only to be found in physical facts, I think. As stated, Armus can do this telekinesis trick, while the closest to this in the Dominion was the bolt of energy a Vorta could be rigged to shoot out of her chest. And Armus can become a shield that blocks transport.

    Now, it could be argued that since Founders can expertly become indistinguishable from just about anything, there should be no obstacle to them becoming members of a telekinetic species, or forcefield generators. But this does make one wonder why we did not see such powers in action in the Dominion War. Why did the Founder impersonating Martok not turn itself into an impermeable shield to block the disruptor shots, then into a nuclear bomb to destroy Ty'Gokor? But there were some limits to Armus' abilities as well. Perhaps it just so happens that a Founder can become telekinetic or transporter-proof, but not much more than that, and these things were not of tactical advantage in the Dominion War and thus were not used? (Or that when they were used, nobody survived to tell the tale?)

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  19. Ln X

    Ln X Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    No because the female changeling told Odo that their race were once explorers roaming the galaxy and only banded together after centuries of persecution and settled upon one world in the Gamma Quadrant. Since shapeshifters of Odo's kind seem to be a Gamma Quadrant phenomenon then Armus and the shapeshifters are two entirely different entities.

    I'll say it again; Armus said himself he was created from the negative elements of super beings. In other words he did not exist as one of those beings or something else before this change, he was created from the evil/negative remnants of these super beings. He did NOT exist before these beings decided to purge themselves of all negativity and evil. Therefore he cannot be a Founder.
     
  20. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    All that could have happened well after Armus was abandoned, in the model where he's at least halfway truthful about his origins and Vagra II was the first and true homeworld of the Changeling species.

    We can't argue that Changelings would be a Gamma phenomenon, since as they say, they only chose a lifestyle of hiding on a single planetoid after having been more cosmopolitan. Their choice of hideout world would necessarily be at one or another of the four human-defined Quadrants, of course - but that would tell us nothing at all about Changeling history.

    Which is probably sufficient reason to discount such creation as a possibility. :devil:

    At the very least, poetic license could be expected to account for lack of mention of Armus' troubled youth before he was created. Batman was "created", too, long after the birth of Bruce Wayne.

    Timo Saloniemi