Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by Cara007, Nov 1, 2013.

  1. Opus

    Opus Commodore Commodore

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    <crickets>
     
  2. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Your needing something to "clearly indicate" 60's implied sex while using "hollywood" as an excuse for the clothed implied sex in ID is a joke.
     
  3. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    If you're going to insist that moment was meant to show how different these two characters are, then the pay off already happened the moment Kirk decided to rescue Spock. That's it. That's not a journey, that's a detail. A journey would be if Spock really did adhere to rules and regulations so much that it did interfere with his personal life and relationship with the crew. If he was actually put in a situation where he had to violate some code or do something "highly illogical" in order to save Kirk and actually do it, that would be a journey. But that's not what get in Star Trek Into Darkness.
     
  4. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    It's not a joke. It's a rule.
     
  5. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    So 2010's implied sex is sex, but 1960's implied sex isn't. Glad we've cleared that up.
     
  6. Balrog

    Balrog Commodore Commodore

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    FIFY

    That's not what YOU get in STiD. Others get it. You don't.

    Yeah, clear as fucking mud.
     
  7. BigJake

    BigJake Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Of course there is the fact that Kirk is shown in bed together with the "Caitian" twins, which is a pretty long-standing and well-known movie shorthand for "they totally got it on" and which in fact doesn't have any parallel in "Conscience of the King" (if I have that episode title right). So there's that.

    I personally don't care hugely for the Kirk-as-fratboy-horndog theme either, though to his credit Pine sells it beautifully. TOS Kirk mainly used seduction as a means to an end, because Team Bad Guy would often conveniently have a comely and weak-willed woman on the roster who could be manipulated. It was a corny, sexist plot device -- and a pretty standard Sixties Action Hero trope when you think about it, James Bond mostly did the same thing -- but it was pretty clearly different from his just being a constantly DTF pick-up-artist.

    (OTOH in all fairness, I can see why Abrams and Co. went the way they did on this one: it was a way of nodding to the character's rep without actually having to include Kirk-Takes-Another-One-For-The-Team in the main plot, which would have been far worse, and it pointed up the difference between Alternate Universe Kirk and Prime Universe Kirk. So I wouldn't call it a particularly major Abramstrek sin.)
     
  8. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

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    No.
     
  9. Chemahkuu

    Chemahkuu Admiral Admiral

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    He could just have been testing their nightsight while comparing their respective anatomies.

    :shifty:
     
  10. BigJake

    BigJake Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Um... yes.
     
  11. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Real Me Premium Member

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    They're twins. One shaves the other. Team work!!!!
     
  12. Balrog

    Balrog Commodore Commodore

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    TOS was never like this...

    ... I like where this is going...
     
  13. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

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    Nope. This whole trope is something completely made up by people seeking a needless and unwarranted justification for sex.

    Since you brought up the Bond comparison, let's look at 60s bond:

    Miss Taro? He picked her up because she was hot. Then she double crossed him.

    Honey Ryder? She was really just in his way. Had Bond really been cold and calculating he would have eliminated her. But he is the good guy, and she was gorgeous. So, when it was all over, he shagged her.

    Sylvia Trench? She was Bond's on-again, off-again girlfriend. Basically a friend with benefits.

    Tatiana Romanova? In the beginning she was the objective. But he started to like her. He could have left her at anytime after making contact with Grant. But he didn't Why? He wanted to shag her.

    The Masterson sisters? Jill was his foil, but her interference was ultimately irreverent to Bond's objective. She was just hot. So he seduced her and shagged her. He was already trying to pick-up Tilly before he even knew who she was.

    Pussy Galore? Admittedly, her help did come in handy. But to you really think Bond was thinking about that or just wanted to shag her because her name was freaking Pussy Galore? "I mush be dreaming..." Duh!

    Molly Peters? Just a shagging of convergence.

    Domino? Like Ryder, more of an annoyance ... and hot.

    Kissy Suzuki? They were playing house, and Bond totally took advantage of the situation.

    Tracy? The one woman in all the world he actually made love to. Doesn't really count.

    And the girls in Blofeld's little army were so smitten with Bond they would have told him anything. The dorm dance he does was just for fun.

    See? Myth.

    I guarantee you can go episode by episode, girl by girl and get the same results for Kirk.

    Fleming and Roddenberry shared a certain "admiration" for the fairer sex. And so did their characters.
     
  14. Cinema Geekly

    Cinema Geekly Commander Red Shirt

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    Most of them were to busy during that scene.

    Dramatic Recreation >> :scream:
     
  15. BigJake

    BigJake Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Now this is a bit more interesting. Although I think your above statement is completely false, I have to admit

    You make a very good case that the Bond comparison isn't a good one, and I happily concede. However:

    I'm pretty sure this is completely wrong. My recollection accords with what Archive of Our Own has to say:

    Now, I haven't quite gone episode by episode (maybe someone has? if it's happened anywhere it would have to be here), but I'm pretty sure that doing so would confirm the above picture.
     
  16. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Do people honestly believe that TOS Kirk if propositioned by two beautiful females while on shore leave would say no?
     
  17. Franklin

    Franklin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yep (as in I agree with you). And would he even wait to be propositioned? From two cases of being on leave in TOS:

    Wolf in the Fold:
    Kirk: Bones, I know a little place across town where the women --.
    McCoy: Oh, yes. I know the place. Let's go.

    And at the end of Shore Leave, he's willing to let Spock stay for leave while he goes back to the ship until he sees Ruth, again. Then he changes his mind and says he thinks he'll stay for a day or two.
     
  18. Balrog

    Balrog Commodore Commodore

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    And don't forget all the 'suggestive' laughing at the end of Shore Leave.

    wink, wink, nudge, nudge say no more...
     
  19. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Real Me Premium Member

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    So, Jim Kirk...is he a goer?
     
  20. BigJake

    BigJake Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'm not so sure it would even come up. [Insert "that's what she said" joke at your convenience.] The TOS trope is a bit cheesy but it has a point to it, which is conveying that almost everything about the character is duty-driven.

    When we learn from one of the few bits of TOS backstory in (was it "Shore Leave"? or "Obsession," maybe?) that Kirk had a reputation as an incredible tight-ass when he lectured at the Academy, the information isn't surprising. His capability and confidence are obvious aphrodisiacs, he appreciates women, but the only thing in the universe he truly loves is his ship and his command, and his defining traits are duty and responsibility. Focussed in a different direction, those traits would more probably make him a devoted husband and homebuilder than a player: arguably that's exactly why he settles down to boring monogamous married life so readily in the planetful-of-Injuns episode where he's convinced that he's "Kirok."

    NuTrek Kirk, on the other hand, shows (and I think is meant to show) very clear evidence of not having grown up with a father figure to form him. He's a different, wilder character, and in many ways is a bit of an irresponsible punk... in fact that's explicitly part of his character arc, especially in the second movie. I'm not even saying it as a criticism, there was a lot of character work in nuTrek that of itself wasn't bad. But it's a genuine contrast between the characters.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2013