Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by Cara007, Nov 1, 2013.

  1. Wadjda

    Wadjda Commander Red Shirt

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    No hurt, no foul.
     
  2. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    No he wasn't. You're just used to seeing him in the role.
    Yeah I'm not sure Khan sold that many tickets...
    Did you miss the part where Montalban was already not Indian, and kinda white ?
    Why ? It's a reboot.
    Yeah but it's the only objective metric by which you can go. Individual opinions aren't really useful in determining what a studio should do next.
     
  3. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    I can see it now...;)
     
  4. Shaka Zulu

    Shaka Zulu Commodore Commodore

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    In the 24th century TV shows, yes. In TOS and Enterprise, not so much, due to the way the Vulcans regarded humans as flawed and illogical. Also, you all forget this;

    T'PAU: Spock. Are our ceremonies for outworlders?

    SPOCK: They are not outworlders, they are my friends; I have permitted this.

    If that isn't racism from Vulcans, I don't know what is.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2013
  5. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Hummus is not flawed and illogical, it is the perfect vehicle for garlic into the digestive system.
     
  6. Shaka Zulu

    Shaka Zulu Commodore Commodore

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    Add to which (and I've already argued this countless times at blogs and websites like Racialicious) what worked in 1967 and 1982 wouldn't have worked in 2013-if Khan hand been Khan, people would have been complaining about Abrams, Orci, & Kurtzman being racist and caving in to 9/11 racist paranoia by having the villain be of colour (and I'm saying this as a black man.)

    Honestly, these guys can win with some people. :rolleyes:
     
  7. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well, therein lies the basic problem of transfering a 60s TV show to the 2010s and keeping the 1960s racism and sexism. McCoy's remarks, the Vulcan's racism, the miniskirts...
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2013
  8. NuFan

    NuFan Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Exactly what happened to the old universe.
     
  9. M'Sharak

    M'Sharak Definitely Herbert. Maybe. Moderator

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    We reach. [​IMG]
     
  10. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Look I admit that Vulcans at time appeared racist but this is not the example IMO.
    T'Pau just wants to make sure that Spock's guests are going to respect the Vulcan traditions. I don't regard that as racist.

    How many times do Western tourists go overseas and expect the inhabitants of the host countries cater to their whims and needs. Sometimes trampling through sacred grounds, wearing inappropriate clothing, drinking alcohol (where its not permitted)
     
  11. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    T'Pau is aware of Spock's being a "mixed" breed and the way she finally brings it up does seem to imply that she found it distasteful. But I would suggest this has more to do with Human Emotionalism being the sort of antithesis of what Vulcan is all about. It couldn't help but be repugnant to her, when her society openly rejects what Humanity so passionately embraces. Racial Purity has nothing to do with T'Pau's concerns, as I see it.
     
  12. Ovation

    Ovation Vice Admiral Admiral

    Bigotry does not need to be racist to be bigotry. However, I find the idea that characters need to be bias-free in order to be acceptable absurd. The Vulcans are more interesting, not less, because of the contradictions between their philosophy and their actions. Same can be said of any society portrayed in fiction. And charges of racism levelled at Kirk and McCoy would be more persuasive if they were generalized rather than specific. Individuals playfully badger each other in ways that can seem quite objectionable from the outside, but harmless within the circle of friends. There is a tacit understanding of mutual acceptance of such behaviour. If a character (or a real person) extends that kind of behaviour indiscriminately, then it becomes a problem. This is not to say that neither Kirk nor McCoy (nor Spock, for that matter) are without fault on a more general level but for the characters to be labelled racist (or bigoted), far more persistent bad behaviour, generalized beyond their immediate circle, needs be present in order for the label to be meaningful. I've watched every episode and film of every iteration of Star Trek and there is nothing to support that any of the three characters are guilty of being racist/bigoted. That is carrying "sensitivity" way beyond reason.
     
  13. UFO

    UFO Captain Captain

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    Very well said indeed. There does seem to be a tendency to too quickly label things racism these days irrespective of the intentions or perceptions of the parties involved.
     
  14. borgboy

    borgboy Commodore Commodore

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    I agree that the arrogance, and yes, sometimes bigotry from the Vulcans make them more interesting as a race.
    I liked the story arc of the difficult human/Vulcan relations in Enterprise and there are still elements of it still lingering in TOS era.
    I think T'Pau's comments on Spock's heritage come off as prejudiced. If Spock exhibiting traits from his human mother are repugnant to her, then that makes T'Pau seem prejudiced. It doesn't make her less interesting though, and these reactions, and the way Spock is treated by many Vulcans thru the franchise, is great character and background development for Spock.
     
  15. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    Personally I vote for the "green-blooded, Inhuman..." incomplete sentence in TWOK. Seriously, what the hell was wrong with McCoy there ?

    The Vulcan species and its entire ecosystem deserved to die because they weren't treating everybody nicely enough ?
     
  16. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    McCoy is often embarrassing to rewatch. I really would like NuTrek to find other words for the needling.

    And we hold Vulcans to a high standard because they are crapping on about logic all the time. Klingons are equally racist but we expect insults to be flying out of their mouths. They look down on any race that cannot meet them as equals in battle, a value many other races don't have. Andorians, Tellarites, they were also dickheads :lol:
     
  17. Franklin

    Franklin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    McCoy enjoyed trying to get a rise out of Spock. McCoy is also bad-tempered when provoked, so he goes off half-cocked. That's all it ever was. Spock knew it. It might have been nice to see McCoy apologize on screen once in a while for an off-the-cuff remark, but I think if Spock thought for a second that McCoy was ever sincere, he wouldn't have taken half of his shit. Instead, I think see saw McCoy's remarks as tedious, tiresome, and basically frivolous. Besides, Spock got in his zingers in response.

    I think Spock also knew McCoy was trying very hard to evoke his human part. Kirk also did that, but in different ways.

    The interesting question for me was always if McCoy and Spock could've ever been life-long friends without Kirk, and if they would've remained friends if they lost Kirk. I could see them growing apart without Kirk as a unifying factor.

    As far as the races in Trek go, all were painted with such a broad brush that if we talked about or presented real nationalities that singularly, we'd be labeled bigots or racists.
     
  18. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    That IS interesting!

    I don't think they would have become friends without Kirk. But post Kirk they would be (and are, SOB) united by their love of the great man and their valuing his memory. I'm sure McCoy would gravitate towards Spock to talk about Jim, because he would know Spock was one person who would really understand the friendship and the loss.
    They all look like racists because it's supposed to show the glorious evolution of humans into a brave new world of tolerance.
     
  19. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    In that particular instance it semed mean-spirited, though.
     
  20. Ovation

    Ovation Vice Admiral Admiral

    Have you never been mean-spirited with a friend? Not that I disagree with your point but it makes the character more interesting if he's flawed.