Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by Cara007, Nov 1, 2013.

  1. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

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    (TOS) Kirk looks worse when you toss in Balance of Terror. He calls down Stiles for his racism, but lets McCoy get by with it on a regular basis.
     
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  2. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Typical old boys club.
     
  3. Cara007

    Cara007 Lieutenant

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    who did you find more racist. McCoy calling spock a green blooded hob goblin or the vulcan kids constantly bullying spock for his human heritage.

    the vulcan kids are just been hateful and mccoy says things out of frustration.
     
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  4. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    McCoy is an adult. The kids are... kids.

    And let's better not talk about that thing. I hated how Vulcans were portrayed as racists. Holy crap.
     
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  5. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    "Everyone's a little bit racist..." [Avenue Q.]
     
  6. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Vulcans have been portrayed as racist since "Journey to Babel"
     
  7. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    They shouldn't be. You can't have the concept of a culture believing in logic and infinite diversity in infinite combinations, and then let them run around being the greatest racists in the galaxy. Tuvok is what I consider a typical Vulcan. There are many moments in the TV shows where people are delighted to see a Vulcan.

    But Trek 2009 shows an entire cross section of Vulcans, from little children to old farts in the High Council. All of them racist. So by the time they eat it, they pretty much deserved their fate.
     
  8. borgboy

    borgboy Commodore Commodore

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    I have to admit, when Vulcan was destroyed, I was more concerned about Amanda than the rest of Vulcan.
    Vulcans being small minded bigots goes all the way back to the movies at least, if not TOS. There's that flashback in ST:V where Sarek expresses contempt for infant Spock as being so human. Which really adds to my disgust of Sarek. He always pushes Spock to reject his humanity. How logical is that, considering Sarek married a human woman? Even Sarek, who should be more enlightened that the average Vulcan shows racist attitudes.
    I think that Vulcans come off as arrogant and xenophobic to a point. They are too proud of their own accomplishments and have a patronizing attitude toward what they consider lesser species.
    They may give lip service to IDIC, but we've seen plenty of evidence across every version of Trek that Spock suffered bigotry for being a hybrid.
     
  9. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I also thought the Vulcans in ENT were pretty racist (including T'Pol) and some of those in DS9.
    Don't even talk to me about T'Pring.
    Maybe we're just seeing a bad cross-section?
     
  10. borgboy

    borgboy Commodore Commodore

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    Oh, yes. The Vulcans in ENT are pretty bad, but I think ENT did a good job of showing that the Vulcans had good reason to think humanity needed their guidance, considering how recently they had nearly destroyed themselves. I really like the difficult early diplomatic relations we see Earth having with their future allies, like Vulcans and Andorians.
    This made me think of the fan film Gods and Men I think is the name, where an AU Uhura married Stonn. It's pretty good if you haven't seen it, uses a lot of Trek actors.
     
  11. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Real Me Premium Member

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    There have always been hints, some subtle and some obvious, that Vulcans have a streak of racism, including Spock and probably Tuvok. I don't watch Voyager that often, but doesn't Tuvok attitude toward Neelix border on racism?

    I'm sure Vulcans have a logical reason in believing they are superior to everyone else. As for IDIC, its one thing talk about supporting diversity, its another to actually support it. They would't be the first group to say one thing while doing another.
     
  12. Franklin

    Franklin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    IDIC is a phrase that at its core essentially means "everything is relative," which is in itself, illogical. Everything is not relative.

    I don't think Vulcans are overtly racist, but they are strict fundamentalists about their logic, and testify to its superiority over other ways. That leads to a certain chauvinism.
     
  13. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Trek went downhill with ENT for me. I never agreed with the characterization of the Vulcans. And later they were like "oh gee, you are right, now lets have the Vulcans find the true teachings of Surak. And NOW they are the real Vulcans." Yeah right.
     
  14. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    Why, no !

    Only true fans should enjoy the movie.
     
  15. Wadjda

    Wadjda Commander Red Shirt

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    Does McCoy actually hate Vulcans or he is just teasing SpocK?
     
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  16. M'Sharak

    M'Sharak Definitely Herbert. Maybe. Moderator

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    It's made plain many times that McCoy thinks quite highly of Spock and considers him a friend; however, he does also enjoy needling him. Spock not only tolerates it but on a regular basis zings McCoy right back.
     
  17. BigJake

    BigJake Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That's because the two are in fact not comparable, either in how they're written or in how the performances sell them.

    "Audience satisfaction" isn't a built-in constant for any movie or any cultural product. It's actually pretty commonplace for large blockbusters to garner an initial audience based on "thrill ride" and spectacle factors that don't age well, and for that audience to then evaporate or dwindle drastically. Time will tell if that's what happened to nuTrek, but it's happened (to a smaller extent) to other Trek films before; TUC made money, for instance -- in fact it did better in gross terms than TWOK did -- but FWICT it has far fewer dedicated adherents today than it did on its release, or than TWOK still has.
     
  18. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    I think that's the point.

    Perhaps take it up with DC Fontana? ;)

    Which was consistent with "Journey to Babel", "Amok Time" and TAS's "Yesteryear". And ENT's "Broken Bow".
     
  19. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    They see themselves as superior in every possible way. Elitism that comes across as racism though it's not about any race in particular, it's about Vulcans being better than everyone else. They've worked very hard to logic and discipline themselves out of chaos and amoral impulses, literally devoted generations to achieving this and they continue this work every single day of their lives. That other races are blithely irrational and continually reaping negative consequences for their seeming complete lack of interest in controlling their impulses makes them obviously inferior compared to Vulcans.

    Vulcans are also probably raised by their parents with the same disdain they show humans directed at any childish illogical behaviors. They are steeped in that response to emotion.
     
  20. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I can't imagine McCoy calling T'Pau or Sarek a hobgoblin. I think he regards Spock as a friend/fremeny that he can muck about with.
    Still I think the name calling should remain in the 60s.