Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by Cara007, Nov 1, 2013.

  1. BigJake

    BigJake Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Okay, we're back!

    When we went to commercial, a Large Cloud of Bad Writing was headed directly for Earth...

    Wrong!

    Sort of.

    (Sorry, this is going to get a little long.)

    For my money the most legit example of this comes from ST:TMP, where Enterprise is "the only ship in the quadrant" as V'Ger approaches Earth. For the others:

    Partial point to you: it is suspiciously easy to hijack ships from Starfleet. Also (arguably) horrifically out of character for Starfleet officers, but yes, suspiciously easy.

    Took place around Khitomer rather than Earth, other ship fired on both him and Excelsior multiple times before they fired back. Not technically an example of the trope... but it is legitimately quite weird that no other ships seem to be around. Another partial point.

    I blacked out most of Nemesis during my subsequent bender, so I'll concede this one on principle.

    Well, none of those are examples of the Earth trope. But yes, they're all completely legit examples of bad Trek writing, for sure.

    Multiple levels of bizarre in that episode. Frankly my sympathies were with Preston, the TNG Federation was forever signing high-minded treaties that made no practical, moral or strategic sense at all.

    So yes, that gives us a pretty good sampling of questionable writing decisions of yore. However, of these, only two (and a half counting ST:TSFS) are actually examples of the Federation leaving Earth near-defenseless. And do they add up to:

    That's a wormhole too far for me, although movie Starfleet illogic got worse and worse as the original cast movies went on. Actually, though, most other stories involving threats to Earth do show Starfleet attempting to defend Earth in fairly logical fashion: ST:TVH shows the-poor-whale's-V'ger disabling a significant network of ships and stations en route to Earth (yes, the story is still calibrated to leave Kirk the only one who can save the day, but the defenses are there); Best of Both Worlds features an epic attempted holding action at a neighbouring system (in a famous sequence ripped off far less logically, albeit stylishly, in ST09); First Contact has a large battle over Earth itself; the Breen attack on Earth in DS9 has to penetrate heavy defenses with heavy losses to inflict any damage, and so on.

    It is true that a couple of lacklustre efforts do provide precedent for the (as usual, more exaggerated) version of the nuTrek trope. I wouldn't go from there to saying that that is "fairly standard" Trek storytelling. Let's not let the NuTrek, as it were, be the enemy of the good. ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2013
  2. BigJake

    BigJake Vice Admiral Admiral

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    With apologies for the multi-quote fail, I've been thinking this over and it does strike me as a really interesting take on some puzzling aspects of STiD. I'm going to cogitate on it some more, but, thank you for that. :techman:
     
  3. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    So did I, only it wasn't called "The Island". It was called "The Clonus Horror", a 1979 low budget movie that revolves around the same storyline. The Director/screenwriter who made Clonus actually brought a copyright infringement suit against the makers of the "The Island", and won. So Robert Orci and Alex Kurtzman now share a writing credit for a movie that was a literal rip off. That's the kind of talent we want for the Star Trek franchise. They're already doing a good job at ripping themselves off.
     
  4. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

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    Given the abundant spoilers available, I would be surprised if the audience didn't already know, or at least suspect. Therefore, why not cast an Indian actor?

    The writers told us she's an expert. Beyond her initial attempt to coax Khan into talking about the 20th century, I wasn't convinced she was anything but a semi-talented painter who was far too emotionally invested to even begin to be objective (real historians do need to be objective and follow the facts, not their personal biases).

    It doesn't have to be 100% loss; just enough information to give future historians an incomplete or incorrect conclusion would be sufficient for Marla to make a mistake.

    I won't argue that at the end of Khan's reign, just about everything was thrown in, including the kitchen sink. But I found it fun to see how it could all be tied together somehow.
     
  5. Crisp Crinkle

    Crisp Crinkle Admiral Admiral

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    No, a settlement was reached.
     
  6. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    And who was on the receiving end of that settlement? Sounds like Robert S. Fiveson got what he set out to do. If that's not a win, I don't know what is. And he sure was thankful to a particular fan base who helped bring awareness to this case.
     
  7. Crisp Crinkle

    Crisp Crinkle Admiral Admiral

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    Dunno, do you? The terms of the settlement were sealed. Your statements about who got what versus who didn't are pure speculation. As a matter of law, the lawsuit was not won. Period.

    That said, a settlement generally doesn't happen unless both parties agree to it. Hence, the word settlement.
     
  8. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    No. Robert S. Fiveson said in an interview on the MST3K Vol. 12 that the settlement ended in a seven figure deal. Would you prefer I change what I said to "won in a settlement", because I'm not trying to deceive anyone here.

    Yeah. Both sides agreed that "The Island" was a rip off of "The Clonus Horror" and both parties agreed that the party who did the ripping off (Dreamworks) had to pay for it. If you think for a moment that Fiveson didn't win anything, go watch that interview. He is practically thanking the the fans of Mystery Science Theater 3000 for helping spread awareness to this fact online. And keep in mind that MST3K is a show that MOCKED "The Clonus Horror" in it's entirety. Quite the gentlemen when compared to Robert Orci, who will tell fans who didn't like his work to F off.
     
  9. Happy Xmas (War Is Over)

    Happy Xmas (War Is Over) Fleet Admiral Premium Member

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    Exactly, and when the writers tell us something like that, its usually true unless by the end of the episode it's proven wrong. Not by the writers having the character do stupid things, but by the the characters discovering the person is a fraud. The writers were working from a 60s view of women that includes "female urges" and a desire to find a man. So any short comings Marla has are laid at the feet of the writers, not the character. We can't rationalize that away.

    Yes, but that loss is a pretty significant one. One that includes all descriptions and images of Sikhs as well as texts describing them and their cultural practices.
     
  10. Crisp Crinkle

    Crisp Crinkle Admiral Admiral

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    The info I have says that the settlement was sealed, so, evidently unlike you, I can't pretend to know what was agreed to.

    I haven't seen the MST3K interview, so I can't comment on that, except what I say below.

    I can cite this 2007 interview with Clonus author Bob Sullivan on The Agony Booth website [http://www.agonybooth.com/agonizer/interview-with-clonus-screenwriter.aspx].

    There's even a reply from Robert Fiveson at the end, who says he can't really say much, as you'd expect with respect to a sealed settlement.

    In fact, the only person saying anything is the person who feels he's really getting the short end of the stick! Who is that? It's not Orci, et al., and nor is it DreamWorks. Nor, at least at the time of The Agony Booth interview, is it Robert Fiveson. Why, it's none other than original Clonus author Bob Sullivan himself!

    So, forgive me for being skeptical that the interview on MST3K vol. 12 says exactly what you claim it does.

    Why can't you just stick to the facts, which would be to say that "a settlement was reached"? :shrug:

    Oh, I know, there's an agenda here.
     
  11. Ovation

    Ovation Vice Admiral Admiral

    Surely not to one to put Orci and co. in a bad light?
     
  12. Sindatur

    Sindatur The Grey Owl Wizard Premium Member

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    I have no use for The Transformers movies (but, then I never understood the Transformers craze when they were just a cartoon and toys I thought were completely stupid), but, reviews, fan reaction, etc, certainly were no detriment for the Franchise, the movies made buckets of money and there's a 4th movie (and probably more) coming, so, that's not really a good example to use against Orci/Kurtzman without Abrams being detrimental to Star Trek.
     
  13. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    And I'm bored.

    I guess that's one of my strongest reasons why I don't want the writing team back. Their treatment of the female characters is just embarrassing. Sure, Uhura can speak Klingon and wants to resolve this dangerous situation in a diplomatic way, but this isn't an episode of Star Trek. This is a blockbuster action film, and when you pay for a huge set, Klingons with weapons and our characters armed with weapons, you're attempt to give Uhura a moment ends up being useless because you're writing her to fail.

    But that doesn't really matter to a person like Robert Orci, who said in one of his trekmovie comments (#1147) that the one thing he did to improve this movie was "Got Uhura more into the action". All that meant was they got Uhura to use a knife and a gun. If that's all it takes to make her an awesome character, Alice from the Resident Evil movies should be considered the one of the best written characters in of our generation.
     
  14. Opus

    Opus Commodore Commodore

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    By some folks over-simplification of the intentions of the writers in STiD, Ripley from the Alien franchise was a useless, one-dimensional character because she wielded weapons and ran about in her underwear.

    What a bunch of sexist bastards!
     
  15. Crisp Crinkle

    Crisp Crinkle Admiral Admiral

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    :cardie: This doesn't even make any sense.

    Anyway, I read what Nerys Myk wrote as being about the writers of Space Seed. Unless someone has a Ouija board, I'm pretty sure that neither Coon nor Wilber will be coming back! :rommie:

    Eh, he knows what he did.
     
  16. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Agreed.

    Are women not allowed to fail in missions in the Star Trek universe now? The script would've been far worse and less exciting if she had went out and talked the Klingons down. The worth of a character isn't the success or failure of a missions but how they carry themselves when facing insurmountable odds. Uhura carried herself with grace, dignity and courage in dealing with the Klingons.
     
  17. BigJake

    BigJake Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Unless I'm much mistaken, Jeyl is describing Uhura's role in STID as a kind of example of the Faux Action Girl trope, which he's contending is not very much less sexist than the sexist tropes of the Sixties.
     
  18. Crisp Crinkle

    Crisp Crinkle Admiral Admiral

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    Well, that description doesn't apply. Uhura's not a Faux Action Girl. It's also somewhat amusing that Uhura doing more than her part to avert interstellar war is twisted into her being written to fail.

    Anyone who captures the villain like Uhura captured Khan at the end isn't a Faux Action character anyway, although, inevitably, the fact that she used a phaser and not her bare hands was also spun by the detractors into fodder, ridiculous as that is.
     
  19. BigJake

    BigJake Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I was pretty disappointed when the outcome of Uhura's being brought on the mission to speak Klingon was... a firefight with the Klingons. It did seem to me to turn what could have been an awesome moment for the character into her being little more than a disguised damsel in distress. (And the preceding scene didn't help for strength of characterization either.)

    "Faux Action Girl" isn't quite a perfect fit but I do think that aspect of things is a non-crazy beef to have with the scene. She does of course get to capture Khan later, as you mention... though that's more of a bookend to Spock's fight with Khan, which might be why a lot of people forget about it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2013
  20. Shaka Zulu

    Shaka Zulu Commodore Commodore

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    D.C. Fontana is 'yesterday's woman' in Hollywood, and would be forgotten by a current day executive/producer in Hollywood. No offence to her or him but the OP should find something else to watch other than current Star Trek, or try to read what Roddenberry said in his Writer's Guide/prospectus about what Star Trek was supposed to be when on TV in 1966.

    Uhura had to do something other than sit on her ass and say 'Hailing frequencies open, captain' for the umpteenth millionth time, or just act scared; the movies made her a lot better than she was on the TV show or the previous movies. And loving Spock instead of Kirk's a masterstroke on the part of the writers.