Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by Cara007, Nov 1, 2013.

  1. iguana_tonante

    iguana_tonante Admiral Admiral

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    Next on "Star Trek: Because Fuck Science!":

    Brown-skinned people are actually just tanned, and they become white when kept out of the sun for long.

    Good grief. :lol:
     
  2. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    *Cut to Sisko having special lightbulbs installed throughout DS9*
     
  3. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

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    If they'd left him as John Harrison, they could have still made him one of the genetically engineered people. That would have given the audience another, completely different character to think about. After all, we weren't introduced to more than a couple of Original Khan's followers.

    Isn't it lucky that I don't have to "rationalize" it, as it wasn't my decision. It also wasn't my decision as to how to present the character in either the TV show or the movie.

    There are minute, but noticeable differences between Saavik played by Alley and Saavik played by Curtis that are entirely due to the way the character is presented.

    I guess it's my turn to say, "You have to be kidding, right?". To me there's not a lot of difference between the two actresses, and a vast difference between the two Khan actors. You do realize that I'm talking about how their characters look, as opposed to what they themselves may look out of makeup and costume?
     
  4. BigJake

    BigJake Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Dude. W. The actual. F. Really?
     
  5. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Real Me Premium Member

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    Yes, but you're the one who's making excuses as to why its okay for a white actor in "brown face" to play an Indian and coming up with crackpot theories as to why he's white in TWOK.

    True, but unrelated to how Alley and Curtis differ in looks.

    So am I. They have different builds, different facial features, different skin tones, different hair textures and different eye colors. ( to name a few) So there's a lot of difference between the two actresses as they looked as Saavik. (No offense to Ms. Curtis, but I've no idea what she looks like in real life.)

    I didn't notice the similarities between Cumberbatch and Montalban until someone here posted side by side pictures. Trust me, I was surprised.
     
  6. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

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    I haven't come up with any theories that other fans haven't come up with first.

    Next you'll be telling me that you wouldn't even blink if some future movie had a white, red-haired Uhura or Scotty played by a Chinese actor, or Kirk played by a woman. :rolleyes:

    NuKhan is not consistent with Original Khan. I don't give a damn if Original Khan had been played by an alien from Jupiter. If they're going to reuse an old character, there should have been more effort at consistency, in physical appearance and accent.

    I'd have been perfectly okay with the actor if he wasn't playing that particular character.
     
  7. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Real Me Premium Member

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    Ah, so you're just parroting crackpot theories. So much better.

    Khan's been played by two white guys in three appearances. Once in "brownface". Not seeing that as the same thing as ginger Uhura and Chinese Scotty.

    So you're saying that Khan had to be played by a white actor wearing brown make-up, who speaks with a Spanish accent on the grounds of consistency?
     
  8. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

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    If they're good actors? I'd be cool with it. Best person for the job and all that.
     
  9. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Perry White was black in Man of Steel, and was still very much the head of the Daily Planet. Characters and the actors that portray them are not one and the same. There are two modern-day versions of Sherlock Holmes around - Benedict Cumberbatch's version from Sherlock and Johnny Lee Miller's from Elementary. Not only are they very different versions of the same character, but in the latter version Watson and Moriarty are both women.
    Khan in Space Seed is not consistent with Khan in Wrath of Khan, in either appearance (brownface to white), backstory (selective breeding to genetic engineering), companions (multi-ethnic crew of roughly Khan's age to a group of Aryan youths). His chief henchman changes even more in appearance, and spelling/pronunciation of his name, Joaquin/Joachim. And somehow the weak Marla becomes the love of Khan's life and her death the driving force behind his vendetta against Kirk.

    Again, that's the extremely flexible standard set by Trek and most TV/film - what Hollywood calls broad strokes, where the writers pick and choose what elements of an older story they want to accept into a more recent story.
     
  10. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

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    Don't be obtuse. :vulcan:

    However they manage it, the skin tone in later productions should have been at least close to Original Khan. And yes, they should have used an actor who could pull off a similar accent.

    Since they didn't, the character in nuTrek could have been a whole new original character and worked just fine.

    Obviously, in a perfect TOS world, if they stated the character was Sikh, he should have been presented as such. Personally that detail doesn't bother me quite so much for these reasons:

    1. Marla was an idiot.

    2. It's barely plausible that the historical records she studied about Sikhs contained incomplete or incorrect information.

    3. Greg Cox did such a wonderful job with his Khan trilogy, I don't even think about what skin tone Ricardo Montalban really was (in fact, I never knew he was any tone other than those he portrayed in "Space Seed" or Bonanza until I saw him on Fantasy Island).
     
  11. iguana_tonante

    iguana_tonante Admiral Admiral

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    Okay, that was hyperboles. But the point still stand, she's arguing that brownface is indeed an acceptable way to portrait brown-skinned people. Let's just say I strongly disagree.

    That's because you are not blinded by your petrified vision of what "real" Star Trek is about.
     
  12. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I guess we'll have to add the creators of the Khan comic to the list of "racists" who see a discrepancy:

    http://www.startrek.com/uploads/assets/articles/USE-Cartoon-3.png

    http://www.startrek.com/uploads/assets/articles/USE-Cartoon-5.png

    I don't see how this is supposed to be an inconsistency.

    He can be an ethnic Sikh without being a practicing Sikh. His surname implies that he is most likely ethnically Sikh.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2013
  13. Ovation

    Ovation Vice Admiral Admiral

    In another reboot? Can't speak for anyone else but I'd have no trouble with any of the above (I have a weakness for redheads, I think a Chinese Scotty is no more unlikely than a native born Swede named Douglas Murray--a real case who plays for the Montreal Canadiens--and Jane Kirk would make a fine starship captain).

    I have no trouble with Sean Connery, George Lazenby, Roger Moore, Timothy Dalton, Pierce Brosnan or Daniel Craig (not one of whom remotely resembles the other) as James Bond. Why would I have trouble with Cumberbatch instead of Montalban as Khan, based on looks? Why would anyone--given that Khan is a product of genetic engineering (and Montalban is as Caucasian as Cumberbatch)? IF Khan had been played by a black actor, for example, in Space Seed, then Cumberbatch would not have been an appropriate casting choice (under the parameters of this particular reboot, with the branching in 2233). But if the new movies were a hard reboot, then Cumberbatch would still be a good choice (in that situation, it would just be a matter of being like a Chinese Scotty--completely different universe and thus totally free to make radically different choices). There is no "radical difference" between Montalban and Cumberbatch.

    Now, on the matter of whether Cumberbatch is good in the role (as opposed to "appropriate" for the role)? Entirely up to the viewer. But that's a separate issue. And all the false outrage at casting a "white guy" in a role where the backstory clearly allows for it, just because of a name, is absurd. It is hardly comparable (as I've read elsewhere) to making a film about George Washington and having Denzel playing George. Khan was white from the get-go (even if they used "brown face" in Space Seed, I always viewed it as a tan that had not faded because of suspended animation, while TWOK's Khan had simply not had much exposure to sunlight for 15 years and was not in suspended animation).
     
  14. Ryan8bit

    Ryan8bit Commodore Commodore

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    Same with Cumberbatch and Montalban. I don't think Alley and Curtis were any more different looking than those two.
     
  15. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    Where in "Space Seed" or "The Wrath of Khan" does it state that Khan's entire purpose was to inflict genocide on anything he deems inferior? I would think the lines such as these would say otherwise.

    Scotty: There were no massacres under his rule.
    Spock: As very little freedom.
    McCoy: No wars until he was attacked.​

    And yet Spock Prime, the person who was in that very meeting, told NuSpock that this was Khan's purpose. The most dangerous enemy the Enterprise had ever faced. And what was the body count in Space Seed at the end?

    Body Count: 0​

    Robert, Alex, Damon, what the heck? I get you're trying for more of a TWOK Khan, but you're also trying to retcon the original Khan by stating he was a bona fide psychopath with the whole "genocide" bit. For all the love you proclaim yourselves to have for the original series and the character of Khan, you three sure make a habit of missing certain crucial details.
     
  16. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    There is also nothing in TWOK that suggests that he wanted to commit genocide. All he wanted in that film was to take revenge for the death of his wife.
     
  17. Sindatur

    Sindatur The Grey Owl Wizard Premium Member

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    Agreed. Matter of fact, I've always justified it to myself, that he wasn't actually Indian, they just went down the row of test tubes [or Petrie Dishes, or whatever method they use to make them], taping on arbitrary names (Let's see, we'll put Khan on this one, oh and this one can be Marilyn, and this one, we'll call him Jason... Gosh, I hope we didn't get any Female names stuck on any male test tubes :alienblush:)
     
  18. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

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    Well you're dealing with 2 different Khans between Space Seed and TWOK.

    Space Seed, yeah I can see him being a genocidal supremacist cause of the open contempt he does display for normal humans.

    So the whole genocidal war criminal is fine by me.

    TWOK Khan is just a man off the deep end. The fact that he's genetically superior is completely irrelevant to the story till they needed to make him a idiot with the whole three dimensional thinking bit . He's not the same man anymore, he's broken.
     
  19. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    That doesn't make any sense considering he married a person who wasn't as superior as he was, but also a person who betrayed him. And do you really want to stick to that one time Khan talks about how superior he is? Because once Khan and his people capture the Enterprise and hold the entire crew captive, he continues this "superior" speech.

    Khan: Nothing ever changes, except man. Your technical accomplishments? Improve a mechanical device and you may double productivity. But improve man and you gain a thousand fold. I am such a man. Join me. I'll treat you well. I need your training to operate a vessel this complex.

    Join me and I'll treat you well. That does not sound like a man who wants to kill every last one of the crew without hesitation. These are his lines in regards to his time on Earth.

    Khan: We offered the world ORDER!
    Khan: On Earth, 200 years ago, I was a prince with power over millions!​

    Where's the genocide? Where's the "Everything that is below me must die!" speeches? There isn't any because that is not in Khan's character.
     
  20. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

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    Notice, he's kindness is contingent on them joining his side.

    Just cause he's not over the top about it, doesn't make him any less smug and superior in his thinking. He and his are--in his mind--our rightful masters.

    As Spock put it:

    Side note: Spock got one hell of a "I told you so" moment from this episode.

    As for Marla:

    Her backstabbing him is probably cool with him. It's what he'd done, she actually outsmarted him, it impressed him.