Opinions on Chakotay & Seven

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Mach5, Jun 11, 2009.

?

Chakotay / Seven pairing gets:

  1. Thumbs up!

    21 vote(s)
    17.8%
  2. Thumbs down!

    97 vote(s)
    82.2%
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  1. andersonh1

    andersonh1 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    No offense taken. :)

    Your point is equally valid... that a buildup usually makes for better drama than an out of nowhere relationship. I'm just pointing out that the latter can happen, and it can be made to work dramatically I'm sure... too bad we only had the one episode to explore the idea on Voyager.
     
  2. Kestrel

    Kestrel Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Ok... points taken. And you're right, of course. :alienblush: :bolian:

    Hmm... That's an interesting thought, that good fiction has to follow certain rules. I mean, for the most part I agree that it ought to, but I wouldn't rule fiction out of the "good" category just because it bucks the rules occasionally. Would you say that it has to, or that it generally does (and generally for good reason).

    Would the C/7 relationship have been more popular had it begun, say, mid-S7 and had some exploration, with the Endgame "out of nowhere" only being the beginning as KayArr suggests?
     
  3. Mach5

    Mach5 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    No doubt about it! If TPTB had put C&7 together earlier, shown the audience some interesting interaction, some attraction and/or seduction, the romance would have made sense.
     
  4. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    But can you imagine her pick up lines?

    "I plan on exploring my sexuality. You have thirty seconds to decide if you will explore it with me."
     
  5. Mach5

    Mach5 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    God I wish chicks said stuff like that more often... :rommie:
    (especially the ones looking like Jeri Ryan)
     
  6. Kestrel

    Kestrel Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Indeed. :borg:

    :hugegrin:
     
  7. Zameaze

    Zameaze Commodore Commodore

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    Good fiction absolutely has to follow some basic rules--all the time, without exception. Three of these rules are--good fiction must always have conflict, must always have dramatic action, and must always have resolution. Break any one of these rules, and you don't have a decent story. Try it. Without conflict, we never get to know the character. Conflict makes the character take action and reveal himself. The character wins or loses and we have resolution.
     
  8. kimc

    kimc Coffee Mod Admiral

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    I think there would have had to have been more resolution to J/C for that to happen but given Seven's emotional state I don't think it has the potential to be wildly popular. Like someone above already said, "Human Error" pretty much ruined Seven's chances of a normal life. In fact, according to a Braga interview on the Season 7 dvd "Human Error" was setting up a tragic arc for Seven where she would die to save the ship in the finale.

    Putting that aside one way they could have done it was to go ahead with the original "Workforce" idea where Chakotay was Janeway's lover on Quarra. This would have given the characters an arc going into the finale where they decide where they stand after coming back to the ship. If the Quarra relationship ended up demonstrating "all the reasons we should just be friends" then that would have been the end of J/C and they could have paired Chakotay with someone else.

    As it was it seems most fans had similar "WTF" expresseions on their faces when the show ended.
     
  9. Tachyon

    Tachyon Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    There is no way C/7 can be given a positive spin. There was "hot mess" written all over it. I am biased, however. ;)
     
  10. Kestrel

    Kestrel Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Oh, building-block stuff. Ok, I gotcha. Well, two out of three I agree are always essential, that's conflict and action. I would argue that resolution is the one element that you could conceivably go without and still have a good story. Not often, not even every now and again, but once in a blue moon, leaving a story unresolved can be effective I think. The only example I can think of, off the top of my head, is the end of Joss Whedon's "Angel." Or, and this one's actually better, 2001: A Space Odyssey.

    Maybe the resolution of J/C was that they both decided the situation they were in precluded a healthy romantic relationship due to their respective positions? Sure, it would've been nice to have that spelled out, but that's a reasonable scenario and fits what we've been shown. That said, I think I much prefer where TrekLit has gone with that thread - I'm defending C/7 here, but it's only one possible option, and Kirsten Beyer's done great in depicting (for while it lasted) the more popular pairing.

    Regarding Seven's emotional state, is that so much different than Neelix with Kes? Regardless, there's nobody on Voyager I'd trust more with Seven's emotional state than Chakotay by the end of the show - aside maybe Tuvok, but he's married. And I think I have a different read of "Human Error" than you, especially the end of it - there's no suggestion that HoloDoc can't do the surgery at some later date, just that Seven refused it - for now. Similar to Data's emotion chip, in fact, just more potentially lethal. In fact, that possiblity even ties in very nicely with Braga's proposed tragic arc. She has the implant rewired, is capable of experiencing the full range of emotions, begins a relationship with somebody (Chakotay, Kim, HoloDoc, Random Dude #3, take your pick), only to die heroically saving the ship.
     
  11. Zameaze

    Zameaze Commodore Commodore

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    I can't speak to "Angel", but "2001: A Space Odyssey", both the book and the movie, had resolution all the way through, scene by scene.
     
  12. Kirk1980

    Kirk1980 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    This went off the topic a bit but....

    Man, C/7 was just...dull. It's like when they paired Phil Simms with Jim Nantz. Dull and dull. 7's intriguing qualities come when she plays off more emotional people. Chakotay was just dull. 7's dull with dull people.

    As always, this is just my thought on the matter. Relax and breathe out before you post that I suck:P
     
  13. kimc

    kimc Coffee Mod Admiral

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    That certainly is reasonable which is why I'm more of a "post-Endgame" J/Cer. Emotions can only be stuffed for so long and after all those years I can't see J & C keeping their hands off each other long enough to reach spacedock. Must be the Italian in me. ;)

    As for Seven she deserves more than to be Chakotay's second choice. Once she grows into her new-found emotions and is ready for a relationship I'm sure she'd have her pick.

    I'm not reading the Trek books and don't consider them part of Voyager's story.
     
  14. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Imagine some young over educated blonde pretty firm Kennedy, yes, one of the real ones, maybe a first cousin, married a Bin Ladin 35 years her senior? Yes, one of the real Bin Ladins, maybe a first cousin?

    Patty Hearst should really have sued TPTB since these people kinda just stole her life story out from under her.
     
  15. KimMH

    KimMH Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    As 7 is not fully actualized she would not be the equal Chakotay would require for an adult relationship. If he wanted to adopt her - sure he could nurture and raise her up. But a romantic relationship would be too lopsided.
     
  16. andersonh1

    andersonh1 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    I just watched Endgame, and Seven of Nine asks the Doctor to go through with the procedure to remove the Borg implant that inhibits her emotions. Unless I'm just misremembering the scene, the Doctor seems to think it will be fairly simply and they proceed right away. So Seven's emotional inhibition is gone partway through the episode.

    Now I'll have to break out the DVD and see if I'm remembering the scene correctly or not.

    I saw that interview with Braga on the DVD, and frankly I'm glad they didn't kill Seven off, or any of the other main characters. What a downer that would have been.

    That's not a bad idea at all. I'd have enjoyed seeing that, though it would have involved some major plot restructuring from what ended up onscreen.
     
  17. Fish1941

    Fish1941 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Yes, you certainly are.


    I saw nothing wrong with C/7. It's not my favorite pairing, but I refused to act as if its existence was the end of the world.
     
  18. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    but it was. They got together and the show finished. Those two events have to be connected? And the following show, and movie both seemed to be set in alternate universes which demand that such a foul and unnatural union might never take place.

    The universe is talking to us, so listen up.
     
  19. Tachyon

    Tachyon Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Preach Guy!

    And Fish - who the eff said it was the end of the world? ;)
     
  20. kimc

    kimc Coffee Mod Admiral

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    Oh, you're remembering it correctly. The thing is during "Human Error" the procedure was a very difficult one. Suddenly a few episodes later in "Endgame" it's a piece of cake?

    You know I disagree with critics about inconsistency in Voyager for the main part but I have to start agreeing with them when it comes to Season 7.
     
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