Discussion in 'Voyager' started by Mach5, Jun 11, 2009.
I would be cool with it, since Janeway was obviously the biggest love in his life.
It was completly random and bizarre a pairing.
To be honest I think I could deal with it. In fact if it was well-written and it made sense for the characters at that point in their lives then I don't really see much of a problem with it. Kirsten Beyer treated the characters with respect in Full Circle IMHO and in the relaunch canon, as much as it saddens me, Kathryn is dead; and Chakotay has to move on romantically at some point. I'm not saying I think Seven is necessarily the right choice for that but if that decision was made by Pocket and executed well in Unworthy then I couldn't really complain. I don't think that's what is going to happen anyway, at least not insofar as that book goes.
*sighs* live with it, I guess. Surviving the death of Janeway in TrekLit but hoping for her return. Working tortuously on my own fanfic about it too. In other words - holding out hope.
As others have said here, what happens in the books in the Voyager "relaunch" are irrelevant to me, because I'm not reading them--until Janeway returns.
Well, I guess since Janeway is gone then C/7 would be ok..as long as it is relevant. But I didn't think their relationship was relevant to begin with. I hate it that Janeway died though! I think after her death, Chakotay lost all sense of wellbeing and stepped down as Captain of Voyager for a second time(am I right on this or wrong?). That's kinda sad. Poor guy..I'd kiss him and make him feel better!
I find it interesting that so many folks are accepting Chakotay succumbing to numbing grief after Janeway's death.
Were these same people accepting of Chakotay succumbing to numbing grief as reported by the Admiral in "Endgame," following the death of *his wife* Seven?
Well... not sure if this should be spoiler tagged or not but...
Spoiler: Full Circle
after a significant mourning period Chakotay had to go for a psych exam to see if he was fit for command and it was decided by both him and Counselor Cambridge that he was fit to return to command, however the brass decided to remove him as captain of Voyager anyway. Which was okay with Chakotay in the end because he realised Seven needed him more than Starfleet at the present time and so he resigned his commission. IIRC!
I would hazard a guess that the answer is, mostly, no. I guess people are more willing to believe the stuff that fits their own 'personal canon' and if a person was a big J/C shipper it only seems right that Chakotay should be massively affected by her death. However if a person was a C/7 fan then it would seem right that he would be devestated by Seven's death. People see what they want to see IMHO.
Not that it REALLY matters since the books aren't canon anyway but I believe there is a one year moratorium on spoilers so if you guys could keep book details in spoiler code that would be great.
Well, yes, of course.
This doesn't take away the fact that so many fans claimed that it was *out of character* for Chakotay to be devastated by the loss of his wife, given that he was a strong, capable, trained Starfleet officer.
I just find it amusing that it's out of character until it's not.
I know this has been gone over a trillion times (or more! ) in this forum but I think that a lot of the hate leveled at the C/7 relationship, as described by Admiral Janeway not the first date stuff we saw in the episode, was more a knee-jerk shock reaction, especially for the people invested in J/C. However, after all this time to get used to the idea, an idea which is canon as far as the alternative timeline goes, I'd find it difficult to believe anyone could argue that Chakotay wouldn't be devestated by the loss of a woman he'd spent years married to. Surely it shouldn't matter who that woman was? Hell, it could have been Tal Celes who the Admiral said he was married to and it still would have made sense.
The various merits of J/C, C/7 shouldn't even come into it as far as I can see.
Me, either. I wasn't here (or on any other Trek forum for that matter) during that "exciting" period when emotions re. C/7 were at their height, though I hear it was sumthin' to see, but I don't think it's safe to assume that any and all unreasonable sentiments stated at the time are still believed now. As Misco points out, no decent man would fail to mourn his wife, whoever she may be, and no decent person would expect anything different. Even if somebody did say so at the time, I'll bet he or she isn't still saying so now.
He didn't bat an eye lid when he lost his child.
Sure it wasn't his, but he decided to get it, raise it and love, and then he wasn't allowed to. Remember on Nip Tuck when Julians McMahon is in the delivery room and his baby comes out black? and his friend says, come on, it's not yours thank god, we can get the hell out of here... and he replies "I don't care, I spent the last 8 months deciding to love that child and I'm not going to to change my mind now just because his mother made a mistake".
You can talk about the rights of a father all you want but if a human female has a baby with a baboon and she dies shortly after childbirth, you don't leave the baboon to raise a half human child... Peter and Homer have both been declared unfit/retarded and had their kids taken away from them... Even if Seska was the mother of all bitches. leaving a kid back there to be raised as a kazon when it/he/she might have family waiting for "him(?)" back in the Alpha Quadrant who would raise it proper in a civilized was... Yes, the cardassians are racists that look down on the "halfbreeds" and that is why Dukat took one on the chin and accepted social and political suicide by recognizing his mutt daughter Zial.
That would be the definite insult to the J/C-ers and to most of the Janeway fans.
I can't imagine that they would do it because that would confirm my wild theories about them deliberately insulting the fans and that would be too much, wouldn't it?
I don't think they care, to be honest. Trek books aren't published because their fanbase is a source of killer income, and Voyager fans are a remarkably small percentage of their Trek sales anyhow...so really, pissing off a clique of shippers is the least of their worries.
For fun, now, they might do it. Just to read the reactions.
I don't understand how this would be an "insult," Lynx. It certainly wouldn't be for me. I am sorry Janeway is dead, and I was not a fan of C/7 because it was done so...abruptly...and written poorly...but assuming Janeway is dead or at least appears to be for a while, jeez, what's wrong with two characters getting together so long as it's done well? You like both Chakotay and Seven, right? You've said so in the past. Yet you want Chakotay to mourn Janeway forEVER? Can't the guy have a happy ending on any other terms than J/C? Ever?
I don't see what the big deal is? Janeway's conciousness is intact inside the Borg Hive mind and it can be downloaded into any drone. She can come back younger or as a man... Though I always did want to see a ninetey foot tall Borg Dinosaur. A ninty foot all Borg dinosaur with kathryn janeways brain patterns.
In answer to your question, I would have to say yes. I'd think he'd be grieving over Janeway's death..I mean, why wouldn't he? They were obviously very close friends and friends do grieve about friends' death, dont they? And I also think that he did grief a long while over Seven's death as well. Remember what Admiral Janeway told her younger self about them in "Endgame"? She said: "he'll never be the same after Seven's death and neither will you". I would say that's grieving. But we, as Voyager fans, will believe what we want to believe no matter how odd it may sound to others. And according to what I've read on the excerpts of the Full Circle book, Chakotay does seem to be at a crossroads when Janeway dies. He decides to step down as Captain of Voyager.
I haven't read every post on BBS about this situation, but I don't remember anyone claiming that it was OOC for Chakotay to grieve over his wife's death in the Admiral's timeline. I think it would be normal for both of them to grieve over her death. I do think that he would have gotten over it eventually, just as he moved on from the loss of his family, etc., and suspect that the Admiral from the future was exaggerating a bit when she said that he "was never the same." After all, she was trying to manipulate the captain into doing what she wanted her to do.
What I have seen discussed is the fact that both Seven and Chakotay were out of character in "Endgame." I don't think Chakotay would have pressured her the way he did after she had second thoughts about their relationship, and I don't think Seven would have acted so cutesy-pie about dating, with her numbering of dates, etc. Seeing them act that way just sets my teeth on edge.
But you know that.
Well, speaking from personal experience, I've never been the same after my sweetie's death. This doesn't mean I haven't moved on and functioned and lived a good life. It simply means that the experience altered me.
On this I agree absolutely.
And, not surprisingly, I find J/C interaction to be forced and unbelievable.
But you knew that, too.
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