One Year Later: Star Trek Into Darkness

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by HaplessCrewman, May 29, 2014.

  1. BigJake

    BigJake Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And it's a point to which box office returns are totally irrelevant.

    Actually he's talking about audiences, not "fans." (And IMO you're reading that sentence wayyyy too literally.)

    Greg is an awfully kind and generous fellow and I like him a lot, based on what I've seen of him here I could say nothing but good things about him. However, you have a tendency to overrely on his anecdotes (one of which I think you're misquoting here) as sweeping refutations. It shouldn't be news to anyone that the media has a tendency to select and reinforce certain narratives at certain times, but it would be naive in the extreme to think that NuTrek hasn't also benefited hugely from that kind of editorial bias.
     
  2. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    So, once again, we should ignore any evidence that doesn't point to the Abrams movies not being a failure? Gotcha! :techman:
     
  3. BigJake

    BigJake Vice Admiral Admiral

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    See, what I was saying about constantly trying to read this into people's posts whether or not they're saying it? That's an example right there. Really undercuts your ability to look like the reasonable party.
     
  4. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Watching Into Darkness now on EPIX. Still a fun ride.
     
  5. martok2112

    martok2112 Commodore Commodore

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    For the record, I saw Nemesis TWICE in the theater. (That's right! TWIIIIIICE! TWAAAIIIIIIIIIAAAIIIIIIICE!) (ok...I'm better now :) )

    To be serious though, yes, I did see Nemesis twice. Is it a flawed film? Hell yes! Beyond belief! Did it bomb at the box office? It didn't even qualify as a bomb...it was a dud at the box office. (I think it barely lasted two weeks at the box office). Did I enjoy it? Hell yes! Why do you think I went and saw it twice, and then snapped it up the very day it came out on DVD?

    That the movie dudded at the box office only meant to me that I might never be able to see another big screen Trek movie again. I mean, Nemesis damn near put the nail in the coffin, and it's my favorite of all four TNG movies. The first three were overblown episodes. Not that they weren't at all good. They were fine, with, in my opinion, First Contact being the best of the three...but they looked a lot better when they got onto the small screen in full-frame format....the action filled the screen properly then. Again, just my opinion.

    I loved Nemesis, for reasons I've stated ad nauseam in other threads, so I won't repeat 'em here. Doesn't mean it was a success. It was a failure in pretty much every sense of the word. The overall quality of the film is lacking...and I'm sure for some folks, that would be a mild statement. :) But, in my eyes, the film rocked. Being the action oriented Trek lover (not fan), it was right up my alley. It succeeded for me, personally, but it did not for Paramount, and it did not for most Trek fans (or even casual movie goers) in the broad scope of things.

    Just because there is a vocal minority of Trek fans that disliked the JJ Abrams films, it doesn't invalidate their opinions. The only time I consider an opinion invalid is if said opinion giver hasn't even bothered to watch the entire movie, or bothered to watch the movie period. But, if they did watch the whole movie, and disliked it, well, I respect their opinion of dislike. Many often give very good reasons as to why they disliked it. However, their reasons are just as personal and subjective as anyone else's reasons for liking it.
     
  6. BigJake

    BigJake Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And likewise, reasons for liking it are just as subjective, which is what some people can't seem to stomach. And which is why the conversation about quality is so often diverted into conversations about commercial success, the latter being offered as a falsely "objective" substitute.

    Likewise, BTW, with the constant attempts to divert the issue into being about "a vocal minority of Trek fans" instead of being about the audience. I gave youse side-eye about it before, and I'll give it again: it is rhetorical sillybuggers and must needs be called so for love of the Federation and Gornian nerdazoids everywhere and everywhen. :p
     
  7. martok2112

    martok2112 Commodore Commodore

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    Side-eye don' confront me, long as I get my money on Friday. :)

    But you're right....and that is what goes to my point about people "overvaluing" their own opinions, and mistaking said opinions for "fact". Whether one likes a work or not, it is subjective. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
     
  8. BigJake

    BigJake Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Everybody funny. Now you funny too. :guffaw:
     
  9. martok2112

    martok2112 Commodore Commodore

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    LOL! I love that song!

    In my band in New Orleans, when we play "Roadhouse Blues" by The Doors, I always throw in some stuff from "One Bourbon, One Scotch, One Beer" in the middle of it. :)
     
  10. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Would our very own rating thread do? 729 votes and the majority love it.
     
  11. Franklin

    Franklin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    So, perusing the last couple of pages, let me get something straight in my head: it's all relative? Is there in truth, no beauty?

    Ten percent of a group may have their subjective reasons for disliking something, but if 90 percent of the subjective opinions of that group of people like the thing, can't one infer from that that the thing must be popular with the group? Isn't popularity a measure of success?

    One can drive by a restaurant and say to a friend in the car, "Don't ever eat there, that place stinks," and the friend may raise an eyebrow if he notices the parking lot is overflowing and the line to get in is out the door.

    Let's throw a general question out there. What makes a movie successful? Hell, let's back up a step and ask the most basic question. What is success in the first place?

    And then let's address the big question straight on. Was STID a success?
     
  12. thumbtack

    thumbtack Commodore Commodore

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    I forgot who gets it after EPIX. Was it FX that paid 28 million for a movie nobody likes anymore?

    Frankly, I think they need to stop basing broadcast fees on the theatrical gross in that market. It should be based on what the vocal minority have to say about its overall quality.

    Then we would know life is just as unfair as they want it to be.

    .
     
  13. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    Star Trek right now just feels stuck, forgotten by the general audience and partially abandoned by those who made it. Trek09 certainly brought Star Trek back in a big way, but STID didn't do much to keep it interesting. If all you can do is tell the same story a different way, you're going to get diminishing returns.
     
  14. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Except that it did about $80 million more worldwide.
     
  15. Franklin

    Franklin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    If by that you mean it was a tweaking of TWOK, re-watch TWOK. The movies are nothing alike except Khan is in both.

    Well, they are alike in one thematic way. Khan was essential to Kirk's character growth in both movies. In TWOK, the conflict with Khan was the vehicle by which Kirk rediscovered his youth and relevance. In STID, dealing with Khan was how Kirk finally learned what it took to earn and keep the captain's chair. Other than that, two different movies.
     
  16. Karl Shoottheglass

    Karl Shoottheglass Commodore Commodore

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    It's never heresy to discuss flaws in good, or even great movies. You'll find hippies in THE GODFATHER after James Caan's death. I enjoyed STID and PROMETHEUS even more so. PROMETHEUS has lots of intelligent detractors. So there should be zero issue critiquing the almost-as-good INTO DARKNESS.
     
  17. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Of course, a classic scene of TWOK is blatantly ripped off, but that's still just one sequence. Add in the presence of Carol Marcus - because if you've got Khan you must also have Carol Marcus, or something? :vulcan: - and that's about it. Everything else about the film is distinct from TWOK.
     
  18. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    Made more than the last movie internationally (where Star Trek doesn't perform as well), but less domestically (where it usually performs well). Why did this film do better internationally than the last one? One word. Sherlock.

    Nope. I'm not talking about TWOK. I'm talking about Trek09, the one before STID. It's got all the same issues with Kirk getting in trouble with Starfleet, Kirk and Spock having fits with one another, a bad guy who wants vengeance over incorrect assumptions, Pike convincing Kirk to join him while the two are in a bar, the bad guy specifically targets and attacks Starfleet headquarters, Kirk and someone else space jump from one ship to another (Kirk even brings it up), the crew finally end up together on the bridge and we're left with the same exact promise that the last movie gave us.

    Unless the next film directly follows up on some event from this movie, Star Trek Into Darkness is a completely skippable film. And with everyone's direction being "You don't need to have seen the last one to understand this one", I'm betting that nothing will be carried over.
     
  19. Kruezerman

    Kruezerman Commodore Commodore

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    It's the same argument again and again and again.
     
  20. BigJake

    BigJake Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Thorogood is the man. :techman:

    Still going hard, too. I was working a show at a concert hall in my hometown in May and happened across a schedule that was still up in the green room for the gig he'd played there the previous night. He had arrived in town that afternoon, played his show and bused out the same night for the next stop.