One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Discussion in 'Doctor Who' started by Procutus, May 19, 2013.

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'Who' is John Hurt

  1. The original incarnation of The Doctor (pre-Hartnell)

    9 vote(s)
    9.1%
  2. The 9th Doctor, the one who ended the Time-War

    57 vote(s)
    57.6%
  3. The Doctor's final incarnation, the 13th Doctor

    3 vote(s)
    3.0%
  4. Something else entirely

    30 vote(s)
    30.3%
  1. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    He's the Time War Doctor. The Ninth incarnation of the Time Lord but for whatever reason The Doctor doesn't consider that version worthy of the name.


    I'm assuming you haven't actually seen Trial of a Time Lord?
     
  2. chardman

    chardman Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think he's an amalgamation of ALL the Doctors. That all of him, at one time or another, came together in the time war, and essentially "donated" a tiny bit of their regeneration energy, to create a version of The Doctor (ala turning The Doctor's hand into 10.5) to perform some task / make some sacrifice that none of them were willing to do on their own. He is the living embodiment of some great shared shame; someone/thing they've all tried to block, but which can no longer be denied.
     
  3. RTOlson

    RTOlson Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Conversely, the Moffat-era Who has been marked by fairy tales and other mythical stories. While most fairy tales don't have an origin story, the story of the beginning would be one of the greatest of all — because it helps bring us to where we are now with the Doctor.

    Also, the origin is ground that few have covered before and that's often where Moffat makes his hay. Bringing back a villain whose primary on-air story is lost to the ages is but one example (although I don't think the Great Intelligence was fully fleshed out in a meaningful way before the finale).

    While we may not know many details about the Time War, certainly Clara would — in both her experiences with the past Doctors and her reading the freaking history of the war in the Tardis library (which I would hope she remembers at some point). It seems improbable to retread over that ground, although it remains possible if some of the hints are viewed a certain way.

    In any case, I consider the Time War to be relatively small in the grand scheme of things (despite how cataclysmic it must have been to its participants). Going back to the beginning — at least for a visit — is a worthy adventure for the 50th anniversary.
     
  4. JoeZhang

    JoeZhang Vice Admiral Admiral

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    He is never going to do the origin for the same reason he is never going to do the time war nor neither reveal the Doctor's name - it is always going to be a disappointment.

    The use of the GI is largely irrelevant as that could have been anyone or anything, there is nothing intrinsic in the character of the GI that is required for the story to work.
     
  5. Shazam!

    Shazam! Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think it's Doc 8.5; post-McGann / pre-Eccelston. I would then assume that he was the one who wiped out the Daleks and the Time Lords.

    I remember in Parting of the Ways, 9 had the chance to do something similar (albeit on a smaller scale) and couldn't so it makes sense that someone other than the 'Doctor' could.

    Personally, I think McGann into Hurt may be a forced regeneration at the hands of the Time Lords. Not only would this kinda make sense that they'd try to make a 'warrior' (they also brought back The Master to fight in the war - they were that desperate) but it would also give the 'Doctor' even more reason to be pissed off at the Time Lords.
     
  6. RTOlson

    RTOlson Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    We shall see. However, in nearly all situations Moffat has to build up to something in order for it to be a disappointment. No one can have their hopes dashed if there's no hope to begin with.

    I'm now bothered by Clara's line that she saw 11 faces, all of them the Doctor. If the Doctor lived what many fans believe to be a full Time Lord life, there would be at least 13 faces and Clara would have likely crossed paths with them all.

    In any case, it seems to indicate that we're looking at a past incarnation.

    Anyway, I personally appreciate Moffat's crack at the legend of Doctor Who and am rarely disappointed (although I can certainly wish that some elements were better realized than others).
     
  7. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

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    There have actually been quite a few Time War mentions in season 7.2. It's been directly spoken of in The Rings of Akhaten, Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS, and The Name of the Doctor. To suddenly start dropping that many references on something that had barely a mention in the previous two and a half years indicates there might be something related to it in the works.
     
  8. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    I agree. I doubt they would have had Clara opening the big ass book called "HISTORY OF THE TIME WAR" and having a revelation by looking inside without intending to come back to it later.
     
  9. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    The same reason the Second Doctor and Jamie were in a "modern" console room in "The Two Doctors": because it's the set they had available. Designing and building a whole new "future" console room for one episode would've been too expensive.

    Anyway, we know from "The Doctor's Wife" that the TARDIS archives old console rooms, so presumably every console room it's ever had is still in there somewhere. Maybe it chose this console room as the Doctor's tomb because it's the one that Clara knew.
     
  10. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Anybody else think Hurt might be a future version of the Doctor. I mean just because 11 knows who he is doesn't necessarily rule it out. Remember he did bump into him after jumping into his own time-stream which covers his past, present, and (from 11's point) future So it may have given him knowledge of what happens in his future.
     
  11. Mr Awe

    Mr Awe Vice Admiral Admiral

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    A variety of evidence points to Hurt being the "Doctor" who fought the Time War. In "Name", that Doctor broke the promise of holding the name Doctor. So, he can't be pre-Hartnell. Also, various stories suggest that he's fulfilling Eccleston's role.

    The other possibility is that Hurt is the 13th or later Doctor. That's possible but produces a less compelling narrative because it's a Doctor who hasn't happened and doesn't tie into events that we know something about. I guess they could work it in, but it just doesn't feel as strong.

    So, he's the "Doctor" who fought the Time War. I wonder what name he took? Or was it only the other Doctor's who decided that he wasn't the Doctor?

    Mr Awe

    They did focus somewhat on the Time War book in the TARDIS. I know that wasn't Moffat's story but still, they'd didn't have to include it and Clara's reaction. Foreshadowing I think.

    Mr Awe

    It would be more of an origin story for the new series, rather than the series as a whole. The Time War is more related to the birth of the new series. I think that's what Moffat is going for because more viewers are familiar with the series from 2005 to present.

    Mr Awe

    (Ed. - don't forget that the multi-quote and edit functions are your friends, helping everyone avoid infractions for spamming. ;) )
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 21, 2013
  12. Allyn Gibson

    Allyn Gibson Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Assuming Hurt is the Doctor from the Time War (my personal assumption at present, but others differ)...

    I think he did call himself the Doctor. I think he always did, I think he always will. I think that the eleventh Doctor's "But not in the name of the Doctor!" outburst was an indication of how he (and presumably the ninth and tenth Doctors as well) view that incarnation -- that he had done something un-Doctor-ish and was no longer worthy of the name.

    However, this will make for problematic storytelling in the anniversary special. The tenth Doctor's opinion on the Hurt Doctor can't change, otherwise the eleventh Doctor would have a different outlook on his Hurt incarnation.

    What's also problematic is this. Shouldn't the eleventh Doctor remember this moment from the perspective of the Hurt Doctor? However, the eleventh Doctor seemed genuinely surprised that his Hurt incarnation was there.

    The more I think about this, the more I think that John Hurt is not replacing Christopher Eccleston in the anniversary special, that Moffat always intended for there to be a missing Doctor, because the eleventh Doctor's dialogue would sound odd if applied to the ninth or eighth Doctors.
     
  13. JoeZhang

    JoeZhang Vice Admiral Admiral

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    But we know it's his secret *before* he goes in...
     
  14. Mr Awe

    Mr Awe Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I agree with 2 out of the 3. I think a true origin story that shows why and how the Hartnell Doctor stole the TARDIS and left Gallifrey could be a great story. Sometimes you have to swing big. But, that's a defining moment for the character that's ripe for telling.

    I don't think that's what we'll get for the Anniversary special though, and that's OK. One of my favorite bits of the season finale was seeing Hartnell and Susan steal the TARDIS!

    Mr Awe
     
  15. Chaos Descending

    Chaos Descending Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The Great Intelligence made a big noise about the final atrocities that the Doctor committed before his death. Deaths of Billions. In my mind there is no way that the John Hurt Doctor is from the past.
     
  16. Photoman15

    Photoman15 Commodore Commodore

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    What if as someone said before, the TimeLords forced the regen of 8 into Hurt to fight the Time War. The Doctor (Hurt) finds out that Rassilon and his council are going to invoked the Ultimate Sanction. The Doctor uses "the Moment". What is the Moment? Could it be the moment the Ultimate Sanction is activated (for lack of better word) being used by the Doctor who forces a regeneration on himself (into 9) and uses regen energy to time lock the war?
     
  17. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    We have the same problem with "The Three," "Five," and "Two Doctors." They never even mentioned the issue in any of those. The only time we've ever seen a later Doctor remember having lived through a multi-Doctor meeting before was in "Time Crash." Though that was by Moffat too.
     
  18. Alidar Jarok

    Alidar Jarok Everything in moderation but moderation Moderator

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    I think the reason for the current version of the TARDIS (Same control room, same cracked panel of glass) is to show that this Doctor dies at Trenzalore. She only saw 11 faces because that's all that exist. Presumably, time will be rewritten at the end, but we'll have to see.
     
  19. Brent

    Brent Admiral Admiral

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    I'm still holding on to my theory, I like it as an explanation, it explains everything and makes so much sense.
     
  20. Brent

    Brent Admiral Admiral

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    But then the doctor wouldn't know who he is or what he's done, and apparently the Doctor has been carrying this burden for a very long time, but if its a future incarnation, he wouldn't know yet, so that doesn't make sense that Hurt is a future incarnation.