One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Discussion in 'Doctor Who' started by Procutus, May 19, 2013.

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'Who' is John Hurt

  1. The original incarnation of The Doctor (pre-Hartnell)

    9 vote(s)
    9.1%
  2. The 9th Doctor, the one who ended the Time-War

    57 vote(s)
    57.6%
  3. The Doctor's final incarnation, the 13th Doctor

    3 vote(s)
    3.0%
  4. Something else entirely

    30 vote(s)
    30.3%
  1. Captain Fine

    Captain Fine Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    My impression from the episode was that it was the Doctor from before he was called the Doctor. But it seems most people think he's the Time War Doctor. I guess that makes sense too.

    I do wish they had gotten Christopher Eccleston back for this if that's what they had intended.
     
  2. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Nobody's thinking he could actually be the Valeyard?
     
  3. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

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    Isn't the Valeyard supposed to be between the 12th and finale Doctors? 11(12?) make it's clear that all the Doctor's we seeing in his past
     
  4. Chaos Descending

    Chaos Descending Vice Admiral Admiral

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    What we know about TJHD (The John Hurt Doctor) lines up well with what we know about The Valeyard.

    So, yeah. I vote for The Valeyard.
     
  5. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    He makes it clear that Hurt's incarnation is someone he has prior knowledge of, yes, but he also has prior knowledge of his death at Trenzalore. And he learned about the Valeyard five incarnations ago. So it's not out of the question.
     
  6. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

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    I got the impression that what we were seeing were past regenerations. I'll have to rewatch the end tonight when get time, see if I missed something.
     
  7. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    ^They were within the Doctor's timestream, which should've included everything from the beginning to the end of his life. There's no reason to think it had to be limited only to his past.
     
  8. Ar-Pharazon

    Ar-Pharazon Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    Re: John Hurt as The Doctor

    I think it's weird that we saw #2 and #8 in the same place (California) when they went to the trouble of putting all the other Doctors in different places & times.

    But it's not like they edited #8 out of all the multi-Doctor montages we've seen since Eleventh Hour.
     
  9. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    Agreed.
     
  10. RTOlson

    RTOlson Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    This may have been stated by others in the episode review thread, but I support the notion that the Hurt Doctor pre-dates the Doctor as we know him. If one buys into the Carmel Masterplan (which I can understand if people don't), the Doctor may have been The Other, who alongside with Rassilon and Omega helped found the Time Lord culture by engineering the black hole that led to the Eye of Harmony.

    In that context, Hurt's line that he acted for peace and sanity makes sense and the Doctor's rebuttal that his actions weren't in the name of the Doctor. I think it works because founding the Time Lords eventually drove both Rassilon and Omega mad (unless they were mad already) and who knows who or what else stood in the way of the founding of the Eye of Harmony.

    There's a lot of upsides to telling this story, especially on the 50th anniversary — it could be a key element that led the First Doctor to run all those years ago and it addresses some of the gaps that fans have wanted to learn for decades. I must admit some downsides — modern fans may not know or care about the earliest incarnations of the Doctor and it's very easy to get bogged down in the show's mythology.

    However, if a show is going to revel in its mythology, a 50th anniversary is perhaps one of the best times to do it and Moffat generally does a pretty decent job of accommodating new and older viewers. Also, the way this "secret" has been foretold makes it sound like it is the key to everything. Sure, it could be Moffat selling a pig in a poke, but it makes a certain kind of sense to subscribe to the idea of the Hurt Doctor being at the founding of Time Lord society and … being the cause of why we're all here after 50 years.

    Some of the other theories could work, but Clara says that she's seen all 11 Doctors and I think it's possible she witnessed the eras and acts described by other posters (the Time War and Sixth's encounter with the Valeyard). Of course, she didn't see the Hurt Doctor's face … and she apparently hasn't remembered the name of the Doctor that she learned during her flight to the centre of the Tardis.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2013
  11. Procutus

    Procutus Admiral Admiral

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    Sorry about that Roonie, my bad!

    :)
     
  12. Procutus

    Procutus Admiral Admiral

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    It is interesting to note that the coat/jacket that Hurt is wearing most definitely resembles Eccleston's. It would've been great if he had turned around and it really was CE.
     
  13. sttngfan1701d

    sttngfan1701d Commodore Commodore

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    At one point I do think that's what they intended, then after taking two meetings with the Mr. Stick in the Mud, decided to hire John Hurt and tweak the story a bit. Maybe create a new character in his place.
     
  14. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

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    I'm going with Time War incarnation who stopped calling himself the Doctor. Presumably throughout the war he did things he's so ashamed of, things he considers worse than comitting genocide against the Time Lords and the Daleks. I could see this fitting with Smith describing him as the one that broke the promise, as well as Hurt's line about being choicelss and doing what was necessary in the name of peace and sanity.
     
  15. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Moffat has barely mentioned the Time War or anything from the RTD era (except River Song, whom he created himself) in the three years he's been doing the show. So I'm skeptical of the notion that this new plot twist is related to the Time War.
     
  16. bryce

    bryce Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Even is this is the Time War Doctor, Eccleston's Doctor would still technically be "the 9th Doctor", because this guy "broke the promise", and wasn't "The Doctor" ...though, the words on the screen said otherwise - but even 11 said "I said he was *me*, he's not The Doctor"...

    Interesting though, if the Valyard is between the Doctor's 12th and final regeneration - AND of Timelords only have 13 regenerations...then Smith *is* the next to last regeneration, there's only ONE more regeneration before they are used up...and the Valyard comes immediately *after* Smith's Doctor!

    (Maybe.)

    Also...why did the console room that the Doctor's..."body"...look exactly the same as 11's console room...???
     
  17. Brent

    Brent Admiral Admiral

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    I think he is the first incarnation of the Doctor, pre-Hartnell.

    I think he must have done something so bad, that made him regenerate and then make a promise to redeem himself and call himself The Doctor now to help others.

    So from Hartnell he steals the TARDIS, and runs away to explore and help people and redeem himself for whatever he had done. And that is what drives him.
     
  18. JoeZhang

    JoeZhang Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Watch it again, that doesn't work because 11 makes it clear that the Hurt version breaks the promise that was made when he took the name 'The Doctor' not that he takes it after Hurt breaks a promise.
     
  19. RTOlson

    RTOlson Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The Other may have initially taken the name Doctor, but had to forsake it and start again in light of what happened at the dawn of time travel. Since we know next to nothing about the dawn of time travel, this is relatively fertile ground for a writer.

    The dawn of time travel is more enticing and more mysterious than the Time War. An origin story also ties in better with the idea of celebrating and commemorating the anniversary of "Doctor Who" than an event that chronologically happens toward the middle (relatively speaking).
     
  20. JoeZhang

    JoeZhang Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Doesn't the fact that SM completely dodged the actual Doctor's name and the fact that every answer he provides in his stories is just provides a set-up for more questions clue people in that he is the last person who is every going to provide a origin story?