On Second Thought....

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by siskokid888, Nov 14, 2013.

  1. siskokid888

    siskokid888 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I recently purchased STITD on DVD and watched it at home for the first time. Not that anyone really cares, but what the heck this is a Trek board, I wanted to address some of the beefs that I have seen tossed around about the film. Not trying to change anyone's opinion, just my 2 cents - (I like the movie, btw)

    1) Kirk's captaincy - he's too young to be captain, he's fired, then rehired, his decision making, etc. - I don't see a big deal with this. Its mentioned numerous times that Kirk is considered extraordinary, and he did SAVE THE FEDERATION in the first film, so him being made captain is not so far fetched, especially in what is portrayed as an enlightened future. And Marcus re-promoted him because he knew his brashness fit his plans. And, as a younger then normal leader, some of his decisions may be questionable. He may be extraordinary, but he is still learning.

    2) Alice Eve in her underwear - I have never seen so much consternation over what was about 1.5 seconds of screen time. What's the big deal? Movie makers hire a beautiful actress for a film, and show her off. I'm funny, I enjoy looking at scantily clad beautiful young women. Gratuitous? Yea, but its a movie trying to make money, and gratuitous scantily clad females have been a staple of Trek for some time (See TOS). And for the ladies, Pine appears without his shirt. So there.

    3) Spock's scream of "KHHHAAAAANNNNN" - many seem to think he should have been pissed at Marcus, but watching the movie, it is Khan that broke his word and fired on the Enterprise, putting it in the state that led to Kirk's erstwhile demise. Based on that, Spock could definetly blame Mr. Singh for his troubles. And its an homage, I get it.

    4) "Super Blood" - yea, deus ex machina, but it wasn't pulled out of the blue - the entire prolouge set up the fact that Singh's blood had special properties, so McCoy discovering that and using it tends to follow. The "super blood" line was cheesy, but it explained things without technobabble, so theres that.

    There's more, but I'll leave it here. Look, if we want Trek movies, they are going to have to be films with wide appeal that make Paramount a lot of money. That means battles, explosions, and bigger than life characters. I've given up on hoping for the purely "thoughtful" Trek film, it just ain't gonna happen - although JJ and company did manage to get a comment on contemporary events in a summer blockbuster - but I think Abrams has done a good job at making some fun Trek films that I enjoyed and made a ton of money. Which insures more Trek films, and may even lead to Trek back on TV, where more "thoughtful" sci fi can take place. FWIW.

    Let the flogging begin.
     
  2. Chemahkuu

    Chemahkuu Admiral Admiral

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    All of this has been addressed months ago, try reading through a few of the threads here.
     
  3. NeedleOfInquiry

    NeedleOfInquiry Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    I agree with all of your points, Sisko. But, you're preaching to the choir, this board is surprisingly pro-JJ.;)
     
  4. Opus

    Opus Commodore Commodore

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    Nothing 'surprisingly' about it. Some folks here liked the movie, some didn't.
     
  5. Pauln6

    Pauln6 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I enjoyed it but for me, if all those things you mentioned had not been used, I would have liked it more. It doesn't have to be all or nothing, love or hate etc.

    It's also worth noting that it was really Spock who saved the Federation. If he'd followed Kirk's advice to pursue the Narada the Enterprise would have been destroyed. It was only his decision to maroon Kirk where he got additional info plus transwarp beaming that they were able able to implement a viable plan and even then, Kirk was going to beam to the Narada alone, which would have led to the plan failing.

    Kirk's judgment was actually quite poor all throughout the first film. He just got lucky because the writers wanted him to. His arc in the second film was much improved at least.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2013
  6. Ln X

    Ln X Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Or maybe they are all still recovering from TATV...
     
  7. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    This isn't necessarily at you, but I find it funny that many people complain that this board is pro-Abrams Trek. I don't ever see people who aren't fans of Deep Space Nine complaining that this forum is overwhelmingly pro-DS9.

    It wouldn't be much fun if everyone loved or hated things universally. :techman:

    A character getting lucky in the Star Trek universe? That's never happened before!

    I think many of us are still recovering from the catatonic state much of Berman Trek left us in due to sheer boredom.
     
  8. MakeshiftPython

    MakeshiftPython Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The difference is that DS9 ended 14 years ago, and nuTrek is now the relevant incarnation of Trek.
     
  9. trevanian

    trevanian Rear Admiral

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    You don't save a brain-dead patient from bleeding out by tying a tourniquet tightly around his neck. AbramsTrek is no recovery from the worst of ModernTrek/BermanTrek, it has amounted to be DumbAssTrek.
     
  10. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Doesn't really make any difference. Too go to a fan message board and to complain about people being "pro" whatever subject matter its based on is beyond ludicrous.

    Every incarnation of the franchise has its fans and detractors. But, perhaps, if Berman Trek had not gotten more and more conservative (dull) year after year over the final decade, there would've never been a need for someone to come in and reboot the franchise.
     
  11. Chemahkuu

    Chemahkuu Admiral Admiral

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    A lot of people liked the movie = PRO-SOMETHING-I-DON'T-LIKE-AGENDA.

    Sure...
     
  12. MakeshiftPython

    MakeshiftPython Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    It IS pretty pro-nuTrek compared to other places I've posted. I was actually very surprised when I found that out here by looking at the polls with "A" scoring the most, and then the many members who posted showing great support Abrams, Orci, Kurtzman, Lindelof, "box office success!", "they scored high on Rotten Tomatoes!". Over at CHUD, they're usually referred to as The Four Horsemen, mainly because all of their output along with nuTrek has been recognized as awful and that they tend to push aside better/talented writers out of projects because they have more power in Hollywood due to box office successes.
     
  13. siskokid888

    siskokid888 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Sorry, I only drop from time to time. My apologies if I'm being repetitive.
     
  14. siskokid888

    siskokid888 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I have to differ with you a bit. Spock seemed to be hell bent on rendevous with the rest of Starfleet, which would have led to Earth's demise. It took Kirk confronting him and finallyreliving him to get him to come around. And you can't say that Kirk didn't have a viable plan - he knew the power of Nero's ship at that point. I still think it was Kirk that drove the decision to attack.
     
  15. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Rotten Tomatoes with 230,000+ people voting is a far more statistically significant sample than either the 700 people who have voted here or the 100 people who voted at the Vegas Con and likely far more than voted at CHUD.com (whatever that is).

    The thing that has probably kept me active watching Star Trek for so long is the diversity in storytelling it offers. I count Star Trek: The Motion Picture as my favorite Star Trek film yet still love Star Trek Into Darkness. I love Bound (ENT) yet also love Where No One Has Gone Before (TNG). I love The Siege of AR-558 (DS9) yet also love The Trouble with Tribbles (TOS).

    Some people here seem offended that Abrams and Company have made Star Trek fun and accessible to general audiences again. Which I really don't understand and probably never will. Is it really their fault that Trek got so bogged down in minutiae that it drove general audiences away?
     
  16. siskokid888

    siskokid888 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    ^Agree 100% BillJ. Some of the naysayers remind me of the kids over in Williamsburg, where SUCCESS automatically means BAD. Sure, not all successful films are neccesarily good, but if you have continued success, you must be doing something right.
     
  17. MakeshiftPython

    MakeshiftPython Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I was talking about the consensus in forums I visit compared to this one, that's all. You don't have to remind me of the RT rating. I'm simply giving an observation from personal experience, not using their consensus to prove that nuTrek is actually terrible.

    Here's the thing: I don't care what general audiences think of Trek at all, so I'm not at all offended that they like nuTrek. If they like it, fine. I'm glad they got something out of it. I don't like nuTrek. This isn't me being some sort of contrarian, it's going by my own gut, my own opinion. What most audiences think is "fun and accessible" (TRANSFORMERS) I call dumb and obnoxious, and nuTrek isn't really all that different to my eyes. I'll give the films credit when they get things right, as I don't trash them entirely. I love the opening of STID, and I wish the film had been more like that rather than dredging up Khan because "he's Star Trek's Joker". I also wish that these films wouldn't be so damned insistent on cramming as much action as they do every couple of minutes just to fill in time for what is (in my opinion) a very weak story.
     
  18. M'Sharak

    M'Sharak Definitely Herbert. Maybe. Moderator

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    Not a problem. If you recently rewatched the movie and wanted to post some new impressions, this is the place where you can do that.

    It is not, however, the place to take swipes at groups of fans who may hold an opinion which differs from your own. I believe I may have mentioned this to you before.
     
  19. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I really don't care what general audiences think either beyond needing them to buy tickets so more Star Trek is made.

    But here's my point: I'm not a fan of Star Trek: First Contact. I think it betrays what TNG was in favor of an action oriented format, it ruined the Borg and gave us the ugliest Starship Enterprise ever. However, it's silly for me to try and argue that it was some kind of failure as it sold a ton of movie tickets (ensuring even more Trek) and general audiences really seem to like it as well as most Trek fans.

    Nor do I think it's fair to be abusive to the creative team behind the film or imply people who like it are idiots because a Trek film didn't scratch my particular itch.
     
  20. Kelthaz

    Kelthaz Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    User ratings on Rotten Tomatoes are about as useful as YouTube comments. If you're viewing a page for a movie after the movie has come out you're not part of the general audience. You're most likely a fan and that's why almost every movie on Rotten Tomatoes has a positive user rating. Even After Earth is sitting at near 40% positive with a 2.9/5 rating.

    I agree that Into Darkness was well received by general audiences, but the user ratings on that site should be ignored.