Okay, get ready to throw Tomatoes but I liked "Endgame".

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by JanewayRulz!, Apr 21, 2010.

  1. JanewayRulz!

    JanewayRulz! Vice Admiral Admiral

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    :luvlove:

    Now let me qualify one thing. I DON'T love, like, or even condone "C/7". But otherwise I really liked "Endgame".

    For people that like themes or arcs... it had the final chapter of the Delta Quadrant scourge... "The BORG". We had toyed with their remnents in season 3 and spied on them in 3's finale, had fought beside and with them in season 4, had infiltated them in season 5 and again in 6's finale and 7's premiere. It seemed only right and proper to put Voyager's (if not the Federation's) greatest nemesis down for the count at the end of season 7. Picard's bookend with Q is the closest Trek parallel I could draw on.

    For people who didn't want shortcuts or deux machine endings, we had the "original" timeline where our heroes suffered for 16 more years like Odysseus traveling home from the Trojan war and found a life after Voyager. B'Elanna a Federation Liason to the Klingons, Tom a Holoplay author, the EMH married and named, Harry a Captain, Naomi a Mother, Miral a Starfleet officer, Janeway a celebrated Admiral and Voyager a museum on the grounds of the Presido and its memory lauded on the news even 10 years after its return.

    Unfortunately we also discovered that things didn't always go as planned, when we realized Tuvok was a mental cripple, Chakotay died of a broken heart, and Seven died just 3 years after the nebula, along with another 21 other crewmen over the last 16 years of Voyager's trip home.

    For people who didn't want an escape handed to Voyager on a platter, or in a souped up Delta Flyer, we had our intrepid crew modify the Admiral's plan and make it their own, attempting in some small way to protect their families and homes from a menace they had come to know all too well.

    Of all the things about "Endgame" that I liked... I think meeting Admiral Janeway was the best. Everthing from her first orders to her Captain... "In case you haven't noticed, Captain I outrank you." to their coffee clatche in the messhall when they planned how to hoodwink the Queen, to their final scene together in the shuttle (both in its humor and in its honesty) grabbed me.

    ADMIRAL: It's about time. I'm not getting any younger, you know.
    JANEWAY: You're sure you want to do this? (raises the hypospray)
    ADMIRAL: Nooo, but Voyager isn't big enough for both of us.

    I can't help it. I liked it. And I would have thrown my glass of diet coke through the television screen had TPTB simply left Voyager IN the DQ at the finale's end (a'la the finale of "Quantum Leap") or killed our crew in an epic battle on the way home.

    The truncated end?

    Yes, it was quiet. I and everyone on the bridge of Voyager was in shock that their plan actually worked. They were finally in the alpha quadrant, and they were alive.

    "Thanks for your help, Admiral Janeway."

    Thank-you in so many ways.

    "Set a course, for home.":adore:
     
  2. kimc

    kimc Coffee Mod Admiral

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    Where's a dancing tomato icon when you need one? ;)
     
  3. The Boy Who Cried Worf

    The Boy Who Cried Worf Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Doesn't it say something about the quality of Voyager's writing of the Borg that a small non-warship was able to single-handedly(well maybe double-handedly) defeat the greatest threat the entire Federation had ever known?

    Doesn't the whole message of Endgame completely contradict the message of Shattered where Chakotay tells Janeway what a blessing it was that they were stranded because of all the wonderful things that would happen in those seven years. Did the wonderful things stop happening in the next 16? Were there no more children born who Janeway was essentially killing by changing the timeline? Did every member of the crew agree to have the last decade and a half of their life erased?
     
  4. JanewayRulz!

    JanewayRulz! Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Ahhh... but then what does it say about the quality of TNG's writing that the greatest danger to the Federation was solved by one android and one exdrone, telling a BORG ship to go to sleep?
     
  5. Pemmer Harge

    Pemmer Harge Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    It was OK, I thought. Regarding the Borg aspect, I liked it better than some of the Voyager Borg episodes - primarily because of Alice Krige's performance as the Queen. I thought Kate Mulgrew put in a pretty good performance as well. I think it's a better episode than it is a finale, though.
     
  6. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I wanted the grown up Icheb and Naomi from Shattered to make an appearance in the final, they made a cute couple, and if TPTB were going to have a new "Paris" child on the scene she should have still been played by that dazzling Jessica Collins gal from before and After because of the incontestability of Paris DNA and... I wonder if that degenerate Kim would have still been trying to get in her, albeit full sized, pants this time around?

    And what a super colossal waste of Vaughan Armstrong!?

    they could have had him reprise any of the half dozen other roles he'd portrayed under plastic on Voyager to play on Voyagers rich but almost revirginated history OR played a descendant of Admiral Forest laying some ground work for Enterprise if he had been cast yet for that role.
     
  7. Joeman

    Joeman Captain Captain

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    Each time I watch it I like it a little less. I just have a really hard time with Admiral Janeway altering the timeline for everyone just because she lost a few crew members, particularly Seven. Other than that and the nonsensical pairing of Chakotay and Seven, I thought it had some good elements. None of the Borg stuff bothered me.
     
  8. Galekarens

    Galekarens Commander Red Shirt

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    I probably would have liked Endgame OK if the C/7 silliness hadn't essentially poisoned the whole thing, and also the abruptness of the ending where we didn't see them really getting to Earth. I was saying to myself at the very end, is that it?? The final shot was nice, but we could only assume that they made it to Earth and the Borg didn't somehow (a small possibility maybe, but you never know) get through and attack them. It just would have been nice to see one shot of the crew or senior staff on Earth or something. But, I agree seeing Admiral Janeway was a hoot and KM gave two nice performances. Still, on the whole, wasn't too happy with Voyager's ending. GS.
     
  9. Adm_Hawthorne

    Adm_Hawthorne Admiral Admiral

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    "I don't know why I ever gave this up."

    I liked "Endgame" for Kathryn Janeway. It also gave me ample material for my J/7 fetish.
     
  10. Kai Winn

    Kai Winn Captain Captain

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    same here. a great finale, babbling over with ideas and eye candies. only thing i didn't like was the admirals dying pole dance, five minutes or so too long.
     
  11. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I once heard it described that her reaction upon discovering that she was ONLY going to lose another 23 crew over the next 16 years should have been a complexion of unfaltering joy. Girl should struck a pose jumping in the air, clicking her heels together, punching the sky in victory crowing something like "RESULT!" or 'WHO-DA-MAN!?".

    Ransom lost 35 crew in his first week.

    If anything she should have "saved" Ransom from making all those horrible choices by just getting him to pitch a tent (HA!) and wait in Ocampa/Kazon space for Voyager to turn up... Actually Rudy and Janeway in an inveterate dialogue with a proportionately saner Caretaker for a couple months (Originally the first time around, she broke him down in seconds with all that teach a man to fish mumbo jumbo.) could have flipflopped everything a little different if Admiral Janeway had convinced caretaker to help the Ocampa become self sufficient while he still had time to school them, then Voyager would never be taken, but could a Nova Class starship hold Ocampa from the assembled might of a few kazon shuttles if Rudy true to type didn't just park invisibly above Ocampas magnetic poles the whole time ignoring the Kazon occupation?

    Wow.

    This is good.

    Save the Equinox crew, talk Caretaker out of mass raping in his Willly Wonkerlike quest for a son, hand the array over to the Ocampa, train and free Ocampa, AND THEN, Voyager stays in the AQ never having needed to be raped by Caretaker after all, but because the Equinox crew (even the half that died before the dishonour became so entrenched) FOR CRIMES THEY HAVE YET TO COMMIT have to relive Voaygers fate themselves but now commanded by Admiral Janeway who gets to do-over Voyager's course home as she makes sure that all the civilizations they saved and good deeds her original ship undertook still get carried out to preserve the general good insuring that the Delta quadrant doesn't go to Hell in a hand basket for the lack of Voyagers influences because of the walking time travelling cheat sheet she has become sitting in the big chair that can route any bugger that thinks she can't do it all again with half the crew and half the resources because she's way more than twice as smart now.
     
  12. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Besides the lack of reunion, I like "Endgame".

    I've gotten over the disappointment years ago and I've come to accept what is.
    I'm glad it wasn't a "come full circle" ending again like TNG or DS9.
    While it worked for them, I think it would have been hokey for Voyager.
    Having Alice Krige as the Borg Queen again gives it a big plus too.
     
  13. InklingStar

    InklingStar Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    It absolutely sucked.

    Oh, is that too short? :)

    I watched Endgame in its first run. I thought Voyager had done some really good episodes in the final two seasons so I was excited. I enjoyed the episode at first, but then I actually thought about it:

    It completes the wussification of the Borg. One Starship with technology from the future destroys them all.

    It's a cheap ending. Imagine if in DS9 a Ben Sisko from the future comes back with advanced technology and singlehandedly wins the Dominion War?

    The entire thing seems to be a cheat. Why did Janeway come back to that moment? Sure she had some reasons but why not before the Caretaker Array blew up? Why not before they met the Borg? Why not any other point? Additionally, it's a cheat to the viewers. After watching faithfully for seven years, we don't get to see the crew return through their own persistence and ingenuity. Instead the entire series ends on deus ex machina.

    I really felt at the time like the writers were taking the easy way out. Instead of creating a compelling story about how Voyager returned home through the sacrifice and hard work of the crew we've come to know on the show, they cheated.
     
  14. Luther Sloan

    Luther Sloan Captain Captain

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    InklingStar:

    Personally, I thought Voyager is the only series within Star Trek that had a decent finale. I am not saying the finale couldn't have been written better or smarter. But for what Voyager was overall as a series, it was pretty satisfying finale for me. The Original Series didn't really have a planned finale (Unless you count Star Trek 6). The Next Generation's finale was boring. Deep Space Nine's finale seemed like it was rushed and made on a limited budget. And Enterprise's finale was one of the most retarded episodes in Star Trek history.


    Yeah, this is sort of what I went through with Enterprise. So I know how you feel.

    Remember. This was not the only time the Borg have been defeated. Plus, it has already been shown that the Borg had been defeated by future technology (i.e. The Borg called "One").

    Although it didn't bother me:

    Sisko cheated the Dominion in a huge way on Deep Space Nine once. In the episode, "Sacrifice of Angels", Ben Sisko convinced the worm hole aliens to provide a miracle in stopping the Dominion ships within the worm hole. And they did it. Sure there was a price to be paid later. But it was in the series finale, though. Still was a huge cheat or convenient way to wrap up that particular internal arc, if you ask me.

    Janeway came back to the point in time she did because...

    (1) It was going to save Seven's life and possibly Chakota's life.

    (2) It was going to save Tuvok from a mental illness.

    (3) It was going to save 22 other crew members from dying.

    (4) It was the only opportunity or point in time where she could save Seven of Nine, Tuvok, and other lives.

    That is what the entire run of the series was for. Everything the crew went through within the seven years was the crew's trial by fire. Personally, I don't think Admiral Janeway and her future technology was a dues ex machina. Admiral Janeway is not a new character. Admiral Janeway is Captain Janeway. They are the same character. That was the whole point of the episode. It showed the inner struggles that each of us wrestles with each and every single day within ourselves. The choices that we could have corrected or done differently in the past if we were given the opportunity (to do it over again). Also, the future ship that Janeway used to hold off the Borg was not the actual thing that destroyed the Borg either. It was Admiral Janeway's sacrifice that saved her crew from the Borg. That was the beauty of it. She was willing to give up her life to save the lives of those crew members she felt should have lived on or deserved better.

    But see, that's just the thing. We did see the crew suffer after getting home. We seen Tuvok mentally ill. We seen that Chakotay and Seven were dead when they shouldn't have been. We learned that 22 other crew members died. And it wasn't a cheat in the crew getting home because Janeway sacrificed her life for her crew.



    Side Note:

    Also the finale was a appropriate because...

    1. The show reaches it's goal (they get home). To go against that goal would essentially leave a lot of unanswered questions or destroy any hope or optimism you had for the crew (when you watch the series again).

    2. It used Voyager's most prominent villain (The Borg).

    3. It used Voyager's semi popular theoretical plot device (Time Travel).
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2010
  15. RyuRoots

    RyuRoots Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well, you're free to like any episode you wish, although I'll hold you to the tomato thing if I ever meet you in person.

    I don't feel like doing a comprehensive post on the reasons I loathe Endgame right now, but one thing I want to address is the very end. I don't mind it being quiet, I mind it having no closure of any kind on anything important. Honestly, who actually expected Voyager to NOT make it home? We all knew they were going to, so it's not like it was a surprise or anything. And all of the interactions with people back in the Federation I'd been waiting seasons to see just...never happened.
     
  16. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I am the most horrible speller even with a dictionary app enhancing my firefox, but Luthor you made a hilarious Freudian slip up there. "Descent Finale" instead of "decent finale" which is a really weird way of saying the exact opposite of what you were trying to say. I think your inner turmoil broke free.

    You can say that she hated Carey for coming back three episodes after he died, or she really hated Neelix for coming back two episodes after he re-enacted all sad cowboy movies where the handsome stranger saves the town and then marries the widowed school ma'am becoming a father to her half orphaned lad, or you can say that she really didn't want to risk winding up with Chakotay if he didn't pair up with Seven in their camping episode.

    We learnt on Stargate Universe a couple weeks ago that "nothing is sexier than a widower" and maybe the sympathy sex commiseration solace route was something Janeway wanted to erase from history if you bare the real reason she ignored the indian for the first decade, and that was that he looked like nothing else but Seska's sloppy seconds and Janeway would hone of that never daring to tread in that woman's carnal footsteps. Seven's tryst washed him up god of that sweet spoonhead stink.

    but I think the Neelix leaving is the hugest bench mark of note here, even compared to finding the transwarp conduit.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2010
  17. Luther Sloan

    Luther Sloan Captain Captain

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    I corrected the error. I must have punched in an extra letter by accident while typing. Also, I am working under Internet Explorer today so I didn't get the usual spell checker that pops up when I use my other favorite browsers, too. Dumb Microsoft!

    As for SGU: (IMO) That show is probably the worst science fiction show (based on an already popular pre-existing franchise) I have ever seen.

    Total garbage.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2010
  18. Luther Sloan

    Luther Sloan Captain Captain

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    RyuRoots:

    Well, if we were to meet, I would say, put the tomato down my friend. It's just a fictional piece of work we are discussing here.

    Personally, I hate when they try to cram or tie everything up or give closure to too many things within a finale. To me, it feels forced and looks like bad writing. If you are going to tie things up, do it in the episodes leading up to the finale (not the finale itself). The finale is there to meet the goal of the series and to give us a send off without it feeling unnatural. Plus, I don't want everything tied up with a neat little bow. Life is about the journey and not about endings.

    In fact, Deep Space Nine's finale had the problem with trying to give closure to too many things at once. Which gave you the impression that it felt forced or unrealistic.

    Of course it wasn't a surprise that Voyager got home. But if they didn't make it home, it would essentially be labeled as a series that didn't go anywhere or accomplish anything.

    Expectations is the worst thing that can ruin a movie or TV episode.

    Besides, do we need to see Kim reuniting with his loved ones, or Paris and his father? Or Janeway and Mark? To me, those people were never really a part of the show anyways. Why add characters into a series that we never knew anyways.

    Personally, Voyager's welcome home should be left a mystery to be filled in by our imaginations. No matter how good they could have done a welcome home for the crew, it still would have left us wanting for more. Plus, we already know how everyone is going to react when they get home, anyways. It doesn't need to be shown us to us on screen.

    At least in my opinion.
     
  19. auntieprise1701

    auntieprise1701 Ensign Red Shirt

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    Except for the C/7 thing, I enjoy Endgame, I like the way Voyager used the Borg in their stories, I was glad that the crew got home. I also like how Admiral Janeway changed history for her crew the same way Chakotay did in 'Timeless'. Christy Golden did a follow up story to 'Endgame' that gave us the fanfair, the welcome home party, and even a J/C thread.
     
  20. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Christie Golden's Voyager makes real Voyager look like Saw IV.

    Welcome to the forums auntieprize. :)