Oh come on Spock, it sucks! Big Deal. (SPOILERS)

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by Flake, May 30, 2013.

  1. Franklin

    Franklin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    No. That would be called an invasion. Now, if by chance you're pulled into it, I'd say you do what you need to within reason to get out, but that's all.

    I promise not to get on my soap box, again, but yes, this is basically the correct perspective. Otherwise, the PD is completely amoral and there's no way Starfleet can call itself a humanitarian armada.

    Think of it this way, there's a difference between going into a healthy culture, proselytizing and teaching the missionary position is the only way God wants you to have sex, and rendering aid to people after a disaster, or giving food and medicine to a sick and starving people without any conditions. Or, by the way, saving their planet from a natural disaster.

    Even Spock apparently thought it was OK at least as long as they weren't discovered. It's not, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, unless you don't have warp drive, then suck it, buddy!
     
  2. -Brett-

    -Brett- Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I would think there's enough there for the audience to figure it out from context without too much trouble.
     
  3. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

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    It's a bit ambiguous, I admit, but here's my take on it:

    The Enterprise is on a routine survey mission when they stumble onto the crisis on Nibiru. Saving the planet wasn't on the agenda, but it wasn't expressly forbidden either. Kirk, acting on his own initiative, decides to intervene. Spock agrees to go along with it, provided they don't break the Prime Directive by revealing themselves to the natives.

    But the best-laid plans . . ..

    Later, a frustrated Pike complains that Kirk was just supposed to be on a goddamn survey mission, but the real issue seemed to be that he let himself be seen by the natives. I didn't get that he had been ordered to let the natives die.

    How would Pike have reacted if the plan had gone smoothly and Kirk had saved the planet without the natives being any the wiser? Hard to say.

    I think the confusion here reflects a larger confusion as to what exactly Prime Directive covers--which, alas, carried over into the new movie.
     
  4. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    Thing is, the prime directive is meant to prevent captains from playing god, messing up entire civilizations, etc. But the way it's portrayed in Star Trek, even saving a race from extinction is some form of monstrous act.

    I just think the thing is ill-defined because of lazy writing.

    The entire "destiny" thing is nonsense.
     
  5. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

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    I would amend that to say that a few Star Trek episodes (and writers) portray it that way, but that hasn't been consistent over the decades. Certainly, that wasn't how it was ever portrayed on TOS.

    Honestly, I remember when "Homeward" first aired, pretty much every Trekkie I knew thought it was ridiculous. I'm inclined to ignore that one. Lord knows Kirk would have! :)
     
  6. knine

    knine Captain Captain

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    No, these first reasons are why he lost the Enterprise and ends up getting assigned as first officer to Pike. Then Pike and bunches of other captains and admirals are killed. So of course, Admiral Marcus, with the best of intentions and no other motives at all gives him back the ship so he can take out Khan.

    The actions and orders of Spock are what mainly caused Khan's ship to fall from orbit, Kirk was busy saving the Enterprise during those events.
     
  7. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I was talking character arc. The movie starts with "Look, Kirk is still immature." and ends with "Look, Kirk gets his 5-year mission." but in between, there is nothing that makes him earn that.

    The commanding officer takes responsibility for the actions of his subordinates. Kirk & Spock saved the Enterprise at the cost of 10,000 innocent lives. Even if you say Spock takes all the blame, why the hell was he around at the start of the 5-year mission then?
     
  8. Flake

    Flake Commodore Commodore

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    Actually its all Scotty's fault.

    Infact I think Simon Pegg in MI4 was supposed to watch a prisoner and he fucked up there as well!
     
  9. Franklin

    Franklin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Spock didn't control where the Vengeance went down. Khan sent the Vengeance on its trajectory towards SF. And, what was Spock supposed to do different?

    Would it have been OK to not destroy the Vengeance, and then Khan responds by destroying the Enterprise, then opening up fire on every Starfleet facility on Earth? That's a real alternative.
     
  10. StarMan

    StarMan Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Correct. Pike stated he would never put his first officer in that situation in the first place, which gave me the impression it was Kirk's idea to graduate the mission from survey to rescue. Given how it played out in Pike's office, it renders Spock's objection all the more baffling on the transporter pad. Whatever the details may be, there's little doubt - within the context of this movie - that the whole mission was a violation of the prime directive.

    Granted, it's well within Kirk's profile to do this sort of thing. However, his total nonchalance and juvenile choice of words irked me more than anything. Big deal? Well, given their reaction afterwards (deifying the Enterprise - you're not going to worship a scroll after that are you?) yes... big deal.
     
  11. solariabsg25

    solariabsg25 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I don't think the sequence was supposed to show the whole thing about the Prime Directive (the boundaries of which seem to depend on the plot requirements of the story).

    It was intended to show that Kirk HAD been promoted too quickly in the '09 movie. Pike calls him out on it, telling Kirk he's bending the rules constantly indicating this isn't the first time. Kirk even argues that the rules don't apply to him.

    Then his whole world is torn from him, and Pike wanted him as First Officer in order to give Kirk the guidance to become the Captain he should be. Admiral Marcus was probably counting on the fact that Kirk's career was on the line, thinking that Kirk would just follow the orders to launch the torpedoes following his humiliation and dressing down.
     
  12. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    I disagree. I thought there was, quite a bit. Kirk's realisation that his desire for vengeance was rash. His realisation that he's no good as the captain. His sacrifice, etc.
     
  13. sj4iy

    sj4iy Commander Red Shirt

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    He kept Admiral Marcus from starting a war with Klingons and kept Khan from killing many more people on Earth (and other places) with a ship of mass destruction. Kirk is such a horrible officer.
     
  14. starburst

    starburst Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I dont think saving the planet was the big deal here, it was a big deal but not Pike and co's main issue, it was that Kirk revealed the Enterprise (breaking the Prime Directive) and then lying about it in his official report which got him busted.

    The Prime Directive always made more sense when it was simply dont make a primitive species aware of you or where you come from.

    The TNG style "no interference what so ever who are we to play god!" version has always raised questions for me, if we adopted a policy of not interfearing with the natural outcome of events here on Earth today then technically such a Prime Directive could stop more developed countries sending aid to those affected by eath quakes or tsunamis or areas of severe and prolonged draught, something which most people I would assume wouldnt go along with!
     
  15. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Auld Lang Mod Moderator

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    Saving a civilization while keeping out of sight of the natives seemed to be in accordance with the Prime Directive in TOS...otherwise, they wouldn't have been trying to deflect the asteroid in "The Paradise Syndrome".

    In STID, I think that Kirk's punishment for violating the Prime Directive should have been being forced to sit and watch a compilation of Picard's speeches about the Prime Directive from TNG.
     
  16. Spock/Uhura Fan

    Spock/Uhura Fan Captain Captain

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    I don't. The context is kind of there, but then it also kind of isn't. How did they plan on the people not seeing them leave anyway? They had to rise up out of the water at some point, and just think of the sound that would have made. I don't understand how they weren't detected going in if the people were that close. It doesn't matter now, though.
     
  17. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    agreed-the PD is stupid because the premise that an outside observer could judge what "natural evolution" would be for a group is ridiculous.
     
  18. OpenMaw

    OpenMaw Captain Captain

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    If I were in charge of a new series, the Prime Directive is one of the first things I would chuck out the window and start from scratch on. It would be very simple.

    Essentially "No star ship commander shall involve themselves, or any member of their crew, or any starfleet personnel, in the political or cultural machinations of a pre-warp society." IE: Yes, you can save them from extinction, just go unseen. Don't influence the culture and politics.

    As far as I understand the PD in TOS, that's basically how it was supposed to be anyway.
     
  19. RPJOB

    RPJOB Commander Red Shirt

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    If the Federation had been around to deflect the Chicxulub impact that wiped out the dinosaurs, we wouldn't be here.

    Anyway, it's not like Kirk really got punished or learned anything. He went from Captain to being back to the Academy to First Officer and back to Captain in about 10 minutes. The really interesting thing to see would be how other Captains feel when Pike is always there to pull Kirk's ass out of the fire and what's going to happen now that Pike is gone.
     
  20. OpenMaw

    OpenMaw Captain Captain

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    We were not a forgone conclusion, or an end result of the extinction of the dinosaurs. There was no intention by the universe for "us" to happen. Not by any stretch. We are here through the most narrow window, and it was just as likely that Earth would have been so totally ruined by that meteor as to never support complex life again as it was for us to come into being.

    Plus, we're not talking about Dinosaurs. If we want to go down that path, then we know for certain what happens in Star Trek when a Class M planet is found with no sentient lifeforms on it. They colonize it. So if the idea is that "One day an intelligent species could emerge from this planet..." Well they already break that rule anytime they colonize a planet capable of supporting life. We're strictly talking about protecting indigenous sentient life from total extinction by natural disaster. Not species that may, in a few million or billion years exist.