Obvious plot hole at the beginning

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by Agenda, Jan 10, 2014.

  1. Gsam

    Gsam Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    I was under the impression that Kirk's lie on the report was the problem. The fact that this indicated to Pike and the other admirals --but mostly Pike I suspect--that Kirk was not responsible enough to own his command decisions and that perhaps his command crew did not work well together. They needed more experience. The fact that both Kirk and Spock were still going to serve in a command crew position indicates to me that it was felt they needed some training but were thought capable officers.
     
  2. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The start of the film is filled with massive plot holes and problems.

    The gross violation of the PD is a biggy though. On that day, those people were meant to die in a volcano, by altering those events the crew have chaged fate. They decided to play god and have no clue what their actions will result in. The PD isn't just a suggestion for behaviour, it is Regulation #1 for all Starfleet personnel.

    Add to that the need for a starship to be underwater, even though every other cultural study undertaken by a Trek crew has been done safely from orbit.

    Then you have NuUhura throwing a strop and arguing with her boyfriend (not to mention superior officer) in the middle of their 'mission', at a time when professionalism would be key.
     
  3. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    They know exactly what their actions will result in. Those people who were going to die, are now going to live. Obviously, the better option in every way.
    To keep their activities from Starfleet's long-range sensor arrays?
    She wished him luck and kissed him on the cheek.
     
  4. Ensign_Redshirt

    Ensign_Redshirt Commodore Commodore

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    Well, we could assume that the natives on the volcano planet were praying and hence asking for help from a higher power... and their prayers were heard. ;)
     
  5. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    My God! This is such non-sense.

    Doctors change fate every single day. If you contract cancer, should they just turn their back on you and tell you you're fated to die? I have an incredibly tough time respecting a person who suggests its better to allow an entire species to die instead of helping them.

    At the end of the day, Kirk's interference will have little or no impact on the Niburu. As the species evolves, the encounter will be chalked up to native superstition. Just like it would've simply been better to beam Palmer up in "Who Watches the Watchers" and allow Leto to believe in the "Picard". Stories would be told but would've fallen out of the spotlight as the culture evolved.

    The Prime Directive had never, ever been used as an excuse to watch entire species die until TNG.
     
  6. The Baby Stig

    The Baby Stig Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    There were a couple of issues.

    1) Spock and Kirk decided, together, that the Prime Directive would be suitable preserved if the native population of Nibiru did not see the Enterprise, her crew or any support vessels. They enacted a plan based on that interpretation of the PD. The plan went ary and Kirk decided to break cover to save Spock and expose the Enterprise to the native population.

    2) Spock filed a report detailing what happened on Nibru. Kirk filed a report filled with damn dirty lies.

    Even if the plan succeeded, Kirk would have still run afoul of Pike because Spock's report would have been about the successful preservation of life on Nibiru while preserving the PD (from his POV.) Kirk would have still filed a report filled with damn dirty lies and Pike would have still had the same reaction he had on screen.

    Pike didn't agree with Kirk and Spock's interpretation of the PD, full stop. That the plan failed and Kirk was forced to expose the Nibirans to the Enterprise is beside the point.
     
  7. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    I'm not so sure.

    Pike is already riled up because Kirk lied on the report and then continued to lie to him face-to-face. He doesn't get "theatrical" until he mentions the natives seeing a starship rise up out of their ocean. Kirk states he would've filed a complete report if he hadn't had to save Spock by exposing the Enterprise.

    There's the general party line of "we don't interfere". But I believe starship captains have a lot of latitude in deciding what constitutes interference. At least they do in TOS, because Kirk skirted the Prime Directive on more than one occasion. Even Picard was able to violate it with no consequence.
     
  8. The Baby Stig

    The Baby Stig Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    You're forgetting that Pike and Spock argue about what constitutes 'violating' the PD. Since Pike is mad at Kirk for falsifying a ship's log, the matter is dropped. But it seems clear that, in Pike's mind, any interference with Nibiru's natural processes constitutes a violation of the PD.

    Kirk was in trouble no matter what the outcome of the Nibiru mission was. As soon as he and Spock committed to their interpretation of the PD, they ran afoul of Pike.
     
  9. BeatleJWOL

    BeatleJWOL Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That was my take on the scene. Pike is getting ready to launch into both of them, Spock included, before Kirk starts making it worse.
     
  10. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    I'm not forgetting anything. :p

    I simply believe that the intervention of the Enterprise on Niburu isn't what got Kirk yanked out of the Captain's chair. It was that he didn't take responsibility for the actions he ordered.

    Because, as we've seen on other series installments, violating the Prime Directive with good intentions usually doesn't lead to a loss of command.
     
  11. -Brett-

    -Brett- Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It really isn't. It happened all the time, in every iteration. The TNG cast were the only ones to do more than pay lip service, and even they ignored it pretty routinely.

    This notion of the prime directive as an inviolable rule, not just of the fictional institution of Starfleet, but of real people who intend to write a story set in the Star Trek universe, is a fan made notion that I don't recall ever existing before Into Darkness.
     
  12. Sindatur

    Sindatur The Grey Owl Wizard Premium Member

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    Yea, my interpretation of the Prime Directive has always been "Don't interfere or you will be required to defend yourself". So, a Captain, can violate The Prime Directive, if he thinks it's appropriate, and he will be judged after the fact if he made the right decision.
     
  13. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    And in a couple centuries time when they've become the greatest scrouge the galaxy has known, having obliterated Federation and enslaved the Klingon Empire, then the survivors will know who to blame. Yes, I’m aware this is a very extreme case, but there is always the possibility it could happen.

    In “Dear Doctor”, Phlox says essentially that he can’t play god, that it was the Valakians fate to die out even though he had found a cure for them. Just because they can intervene doesn’t mean that they should. That may sound callous, but fate/destiny (whatever you want to call it) happens for a reason and to make changes won’t always make things better. Why is it that Starfleet doesn’t travel back in time to kill Hitler, stop Khan, etc? There would be no way of knowing what would happen things would be drastically altered forever. I know its all very hypothetical, but non-interference makes sense to me.

    If their actions were legal and sanctioned by Starfleet why would they need to hide? It makes what they're doing even more under handed. When they got back to Earth the entire command staff should have been demoted and reassigned as soon as the ship docked, with a more experienced crew being assigned to the ship.
     
  14. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    "Dear Doctor" was disgusting. The future is just possibilities, that's just a BS excuse for inaction. If they become Space Nazis, deal with them THEN not now.

    And of course, stopping the Volcano was not part of their mission. They were sent to survey they planet, not alter it's destiny. Kirk and Spock have morals and could not allow innocents to die, dumb regulations be damned. If "an experienced Starfleet crew" would have stood by and watched lives end for no good reason, then the universe is far better off in the hands of these young 'uns.
     
  15. Crisp Crinkle

    Crisp Crinkle Admiral Admiral

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    The notion that fate/destiny happens for a reason is a religious notion, and it's not surprising that individuals who value science would reject it, in favor of a notion such as that fate/destiny is what you make of it.
     
  16. drt

    drt Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    There was some mumbo-jumbo referring to "magnetic fields" which lead me to believe they couldn't use transporters except at very short range. Instead of conducting the mission entirely by shuttle and leaving Enterprise in orbit, my assumption was that Kirk wanted Enterprise close by as a contingency if there was a shuttle failure of some kind.