Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by Brutal Strudel, Jan 23, 2014.
By that point Mitchell had choked out Kelso and attacked Kirk, Spock and Piper.
The issue for me though is the thought processes that went into those decisions. We see kirk weighing up the pros and cons, wrestling with his conscience, taking advice, and deciding what he has to do.
In Mitchell's case there is dialogue earlier in the episode that establishes the level of threat that Mitchell represents and also that his power drain is temporary therefore going for the kill is definitely still in the realm of self defence.
The flip side is e.g. he stopped Riley from executing Kodos, or he decides that killing the Gorn is wrong.
The Spectre of the Gun sums if up doesn't it? He wanted to kill but fought against that instinct and used reason instead. I suppose I wanted evidence of NuKirk trying to find a 'better' way and killing as a last resort. That would have been ending B if Nero did not destroy himself.
I said this before: The Narada and the Jellyfish were intact and fuuly operational when they first went through. Even without the stresses of traveling through again, the Narada appeared to be mortally wounded.
Which is also established in dialogue.
Yet when they show it moving through the black hole, it looks at least partially intact.
The wibbly wobbly science of red matter doesn't help us reach a logical conclusion here either.
Why take the chance? If Nero is going to die anyway, then firing on him to ensure that he's destroyed makes no difference. If there's a chance Nero may escape, then Kirk should DEFINITELY fire on him. Either way, the objection makes no sense except as a "it's poor form to fire on a dying man" objection, which is not a very serious objection, especially since Kirk is operating as a soldier lawfully going after a war criminal.
Well, you are welcome to try.
Exactly. If the film dialogue explains everything, we have absolutely nothing to discuss over drinks after seeing the film except "Did you enjoy it?" and the answer "Yes" or "No".
No debate over moral dilemmas, warp speeds, "Who the hell was that alien-looking cyborg guy in STiD?", "What did the whales say to the Probe?", or "Poor ol' Tuvix, eh?"
He's not quite there yet.
Loved it, seeing Spock use all those techs in combat, for once.
Indeed. Some people complained about the Vengeance's crash, as it that was the Enterprise crew's fault.
Yeah, sometimes Picard's morals went in the way of... well, other morals.
How are you supposed to rescue Nero from the center of an expanding black hole ? Even if Nero accepted Kirk's offer, I don't see what his plan was.
Just like Kirk tried to rescue the Romulan commander in Balance of Terror or Khan in Wrath of Khan.
Oh wait he didn't.
Seriously why does nuKirk have to jump through hoops to rescue defeated enemies who tried to kill him when Prime Kirk never had to.
I recall fan anger over the phasering of the Ceti eel emerging from Chekov's ear in ST II, preventing McCoy from studying it, which may have been necessary to save Chekov.
And recall that, in "The Man Trap", the crew of the Enterprise was responsible for destroying the last-known example of a live Salt Vampire. (The Squire of Gothos had a stuffed one.)
"To seek out new life..."
The Ceti eel had just extricated itself from a Starfleet officer. No one knew if it was aggressive enough to attack someone else. I'd have stomped the crap out of it.
In "The Man Trap" Ol' Salty had killed a whole bunch of people already, and was in the process of sucking the life out of Kirk. Self defense (or the defense of others) is a valid legal cause for using deadly force in most jurisdictions. Most certainly in this case.
I think Trelayne's Salt Vampire was freeze dried.
"We come in peace. Shoot to kill."
was there really that much fan anger over it? Roddenberry was snarky about it, saying that Kirk acted like an old woman stamping on a cockroach, but then Roddenberry was bitter about his treatment during TWOK. I've never heard or read much complaint from actual fans.
All good points. In fact one of the most irritating things about SWIII was that they spent the last half an hour tying up loose ends and explicitly revealing spoilers about the original trilogy. Just in case you didn't get it at home - LUKE... LEIA... ACK!
However, I think that's a bit different to expecting us to believe that Kirk meant the opposite of what he said in dialogue because we know he's tricksy. Like I said before I don't think they had the means to rescue Nero or his crew and I do think there was the possibility of Nero or any surviving technolgy posing a threat to whoever was at the other end of that wormhole (probably with the survivors of Vulcan). My objection is to Kirk's explicit reasoning, rather than his ultimate actions.
It's poor form to fire on a dying man if there are other options to consider. And whether you are lawfully pursuing a war criminal or not, summarily executing said war criminal and others with him could, in itself, be a war crime.
As for Mama Horta's personal injury pay-out - wow - she was holidaying on Risa for 62 years!
Kirk doesn't have to not mean what he says - he just doesn't have to be 100% correct.
Kirk isn't a cop. This was a combat situation, not an arrest.
No more mortally wounded from the Jellyfish collision than it would have been after the similar kamikaze run of the Kelvin, after which it was fully repaired and set out to wreak more havoc. In fact, given the Jellyfish's much smaller size vs. the Kelvin, the damage would have been far less severe.
The Red Matter's effect on the ship is unknown. It could have crushed it in damaged condition, or it could have simply acted as a passageway to another universe Nero can do more harm in. Kirk and Spock can't know for sure, hence their decision when Nero refuses to surrender. Even without any more Red Matter, Nero and the Narada posed a major threat with clear genocidal intent, and there are no shortage of alternate planet/star destroying WMDs available (not to mention just using your own ship at warp to collide with a planet). Why take the risk of letting him possibly escape?
Alternatively, if your view is that the Narada was destined to be crushed into oblivion no matter what Kirk did, maybe his actions could be considered a mercy killing of sorts, speeding the process along rather than making the Narada crew slowly be crushed.
Taken for granite.
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