NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by Brutal Strudel, Jan 23, 2014.

  1. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    I always felt cheated when Kirk ordered all weapons to be fired on the Narada. Kirk actually wants to help, telling Spock that he figured this all out logically (Even though we never established that we weren't at peace with Romulus), yet Spock isn't down with that. And this is the actual end to Spock's development ark. He decides that he doesn't want to follow logic and instead chooses to murder Nero and his crew while they're defenseless and on the brink of destruction!
     
  2. The Stig

    The Stig Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The scene is problematic, no question, but it's hardly the end of Spock's 'ark' (sic).

    We see him struggling with a death wish after he lost his homeworld, his mother and his mentor, only to emerge stronger thanks to his burgeoning bromance with Kirk. It was fascinating to see how Spock would react to these extreme circumstances and it was a bold choice to show him be more vulnerable and emotional as a consequence to those events. This new Spock is more volatile and must work even harder to keep his human half in check.
     
  3. Ryan8bit

    Ryan8bit Commodore Commodore

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    That's not at all the same kind of rules/consistency as I was talking about earlier.
     
  4. iguana_tonante

    iguana_tonante Admiral Admiral

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    It's ok, thanks anyway.
     
  5. Brutal Strudel

    Brutal Strudel Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2014
  6. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    Well, I don't know what you're seeing in red matter, that makes, say, proto-matter so much more well-behaved, by comparison. Or, are the two on the same plane of believability to you, as they are to me?

    Anyway, a planet like Vulcan is much, much bigger than the Narada. For all we know, what went on in the center of Vulcan is exactly the same maelstrom effect that we saw at the beginning and end of the film, but just inside the planet. For all we know, pieces of Vulcan got ejected from white holes all across space and time.
     
  7. Rory1080p

    Rory1080p Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    it doesn't really have one at all, it's basically just action sci-fi (shoot teh villains and beat them with cool special effects and dat)

    the morality of such films is non existent sadly, but just take them as what they are and don't expect it and you can still enjoy them to an extent.
     
  8. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    All good points...

    Except that I'm pretty sure Khan exhausted their supply of moral enlightenment when he took over the Vengeance and tried to kill them all. This, after Kirk and crew had risked their lives coming down to apprehend him and make him stand trial instead of assassinating him outright, after they put themselves in harms way to serve justice instead of petty revenge. If there was any shred of forgiveness left on the Enterprise after Kirk died, Khan smashed it to a pulp when he intentionally crashed the Vengeance into San Francisco.
     
  9. iguana_tonante

    iguana_tonante Admiral Admiral

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    It's funny when people take their own lack of analysis and insight as a proof of the movies's faults.

    Say what you will about its quality (there is no accounting for taste), but you can't ignore it tackles very current issues like the lawfulness of preemptive strikes, drone warfare, state-sponsored terrorism, etc.
     
  10. Rory1080p

    Rory1080p Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    as opposed to your analysis which is clearly that of someone who did a degree in the film? arrogance does not equate superiority my friend.

    like I said I think the films are good if you take them in their own right, but within Trek? they just aren't anything like as deep or meaningful to me, maybe it's because I grew up with the original Trek and TNG, but it just doesn't make me think or feel in the same way when I watch the new films, as action sci-fi? they are among the best out there for sure. thats just the thing though, they don't really tackle those issues, the issues are there yes but there is no in depth discussion about them, no exploration of what they mean, no wider debate within the film about them being right or wrong...in old Trek films and series there would have been, for me that's the key difference, the older Trek would go deeper, it would explore issues not just have them there to give reason to the special effects, the new films are more about the action and are very light on the deeper meanings of the issues at play.

    you are entitled to disagree of course, but this is how I feel about the new films, like I said taking them for what they are they are great, but as what sci-fi does at its best or what Trek is about? they can't hold a candle to the older stuff.
     
  11. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Kirk did not 'murder' Nero anymore than a policeman who fires a gun to stop a fleeing killer is a murderer.

    Nero destroyed a planet.

    He intended to destroy more.

    He had the means to do it.

    It would have been highly irresponsible for Kirk and crew to let him have a fraction of a chance of surviving. The Enterprise and all her sister ships and their crews are the law put there to save the Federation from people like Nero.
    If Nero survived and then escaped, Kirk would have been blamed and rightly so.
    I wouldn't have even given Nero the chance of surrender. You can't take a risk like that.
    And I know Kirk tried to save Kruge after he had ordered his son killed in TSFS but Kruge didn't have Genesis and Kruge didn't have a powerful ship that could take out 12 Federation starships and he wasn't yet near threatening to wipe out every Federation world.

    IMO Uhuru didn't believe people think Spock was 'cruel'. Did you see Khan break Marcus neck, break Carol's leg? That was cruel. Spock was trying to stop Khan from more killing and more havoc but Khan could have won without killing Marcus or hurting Carol.
    Spock was trying to stop a murderer, an elitist who thought most people were beneath him and would not hesitate to kill in his effort to control and wreak vengeance.
    Spock was fighting for his life. Phasers on stun had no effect on Khan. Was he supposed to maybe let Khan get the upper hand and escape?
     
  12. iguana_tonante

    iguana_tonante Admiral Admiral

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    Arrogance does not equate to superiority, but ignorance does not equate to observation either. You are obviously entitled to your own opinion, but it's still wrong.

    I know the explosions were kinda loud and the lens flares kinda distracting, but if you got out of the cinema not knowing if the narrative condemned or condoned preemptive strikes and drone warfare, you simply weren't paying attention. Kirk went along with that plan, and almost lost his soul for it (and he did lost his life, magic blood notwithstanding).

    Of course old Trek would have handled thing differently: they would have briefings, and stuffy discussions, maybe an impassioned speech or two. People would talk and time will pass. Don't get me wrong, I love TNG and TOS, but this is a different product. You don't like it, that's fine. But you can't condemn it because it's different. Beside, it's not like TOS was a hugely cerebral show: it just looks like that compared with the dreadful landscape that was TV in that period.

    Also, funny how you assume people who like the new movies didn't "grew up" with TOS and TNG. Because of course a "real fan" can't like the new movies. We must all be whippersnappers and hipster punks.
     
  13. Rory1080p

    Rory1080p Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    way to ignore of half of what I said, who were you calling ignorant?

    I see you are not worth trying to discuss anything with.
     
  14. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I don't know that any Star Trek film since TMP has ever been described as "deep and meaningful." Sure, they all had a theme and a message (STID had one too), but even the TNG movies ultimately degenerated into cookie-cutter sci-fi action flicks with a philosophical message slapped on top of it.

    TNG itself had some deeper moments, but TNG was a television series with a lot more room to maneuver. TOS also had its thought-provoking moments (though also an abundance of cheesy moments), but has the same advantage: you can do more in 65 hours of television than you can in 99 minutes of feature film.

    Not in the films, I think. The only one that comes close is TUC, which "tackled the issue" through a series of Shatner monologs.

    STID did basically the same thing with Kirk/Spock's discussion in the shuttlecraft , Kirk's change of heart vis a vis Khan's assassination and, finally, with Kirk's closing speech at the memorial event.

    Basically: it's hardly a stirring treatise on the morality of preemptivism and/or counterterrorist policy or the inherent pitfalls of trying to play one evil bastard against another and hope for the best, but to say it doesn't address the issue AT ALL is far from the truth.
     
  15. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    Seems to me like they're pretty much the same, then: both techs aren't very consistent.
     
  16. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    The issue there was time, as was said before.

    And they STILL manage to capture him and put him on ice rather than kill him. I'd say they're pretty moral.

    Slight correction: he didn't. He didn't have any red matter left at that point.
     
  17. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    And as he did to Kruge in ST III - and then kicked him in the face, over and over and over, until he fell into the molten lava.

    There was no guarantee that Nero's crippled ship wouldn't regenerate and start the whole mess all over again.
     
  18. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    It's worth pointing out that it was the second time Kirk asked Nero for his surrender - the first was at gunpoint on board the Narada.

    As for Spock going into a primal Vulcan rage, right or wrong it's something (some) fans have wanted to see forever. I'm still surprised they had the balls to do it. The fight with Khan was epic, especially when Spock countered Khan's skull crushing finisher with a mind meld. Dirty Vulcan fighting!
     
  19. Brutal Strudel

    Brutal Strudel Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    I had no problem with Spock losing his cool. I had a problem with how Uhura brings him out of his fugue.
     
  20. Franklin

    Franklin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Come to think of it, it's amazing he even believed her.

    What she said also has to be taken in the context of Spock starting out to take Khan alive. He was going to use his phaser, but lost it. He tried the Vulcan neck pinch, but it didn't work. It was Khan who was trying to kill him, and Spock was suddenly in a fight for his life. He was going to have to kill Khan or be killed by him. At that point, it seems almost anything one could say to stop the fighting would be morally acceptable.