NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by Brutal Strudel, Jan 23, 2014.

  1. Pauln6

    Pauln6 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Location:
    Bristol, United Kingdom
    I think the kid was pretty much minding his own business and got a bit lippy when he was challenged.

    The point is that positively identifying someone as a threat can often be subjective and proven wrong in the cold light of day. The default should not be bad people deserve death. We know very little about Nero's crew.

    If you want to get more imaginative with the tech, then as soon as your enemies' shields are down, you beam across neutralising gas. Then you beam them off. If their shields are still up, they're still a threat. The problem with Treknology is that using it properly would suck the fun out of the fights so we have to pretend like it can't do it.
     
  2. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2013
    Location:
    CommishSleer
    I agree with you that Kirk independently realised the 'immorality' of his actions in regards to the torpedoes and that Kirk was the one who looked stupid in the fight after Khan surrendered.

    I still can see heaps of problems with your 72 torpedo solution but I can't think of anything better. :lol:

    I really think it needed to be spelled out a bit more (for the fans at least).
     
  3. MakeshiftPython

    MakeshiftPython Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2013
    Location:
    Ladies love Riker's beard.
    A simple solution would have been to just beam up Nero and his crew and put them in the brig so they can be put to trial for their crimes. That's never even brought up, and I would have settled for even a "our transporters can't lock onto them" just to make it clear. Then you get to the point where they offer Nero assistance, he turns them down. Kirk knows the situation from the on is futile, and orders the Narada's destruction not just because it's what a Hollywood summer tentpole is expected to do with the hero slaying the villain, but that it's because Kirk feels it's the right thing to do to put them out of their misery. "I can't help them, but I can't leave them here suffering like this."

    But, as it is, Kirk and Spock come off like punks shooting down a defenseless enemy. Apologists can make whatever excuses they like, whether it's "but Nero turned them down", or "they were gonna destroy more planets in the next dimension", "he's a genocidal maniac, give him the chair!", when it comes down to it, I want Kirk and especially Spock to be better than how they're portrayed in that scene and at least show that they tried. Spock disagreeing with Kirk's act of compassion is fucking bullshit. Kirk's unhesitating "you've got it" doesn't mesh with his offering assistence, unless he was just messing with Nero the whole time and had no intention of helping out.

    In the end, if it had to end with Kirk shooting up the defensless Narada, I would have put more thought to it than these hack writers. I would have shown that it made Kirk a little upset that he couldn't capture Nero to put him on trial.
     
  4. Locutus of Bored

    Locutus of Bored Co-Founder of ISIS Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2004
    Location:
    Huntington Beach, California
    Somehow, I will have to try and find the inner strength to survive the knowledge that I am an apologist for not letting genocidal psychopaths potentially be free to roam the stars in their gigantic black pineapple of death. I'll just have to drink away my sorrows and overcome, one day at a time.
     
  5. MakeshiftPython

    MakeshiftPython Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2013
    Location:
    Ladies love Riker's beard.
    If the film did a better job of addressing that "Captain, we can't risk the possibility of letting him enter another alternate universe", sure. As it is, he's dead in the water by that point and has no means to harm anyone.
     
  6. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2001
    Location:
    Per Ardua
    Why does the film need to spell out what my six-year old was able to piece together?
     
  7. MakeshiftPython

    MakeshiftPython Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2013
    Location:
    Ladies love Riker's beard.
    To make it clear that Kirk considered all options and only shot them down as a LAST RESORT. It's never treated that way, and I dislike how flippant they come off shooting them down. It would have gone a long way just to show that Kirk wanted to make it a priority of saving them, and the way they go about it isn't enough.
     
  8. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2001
    Location:
    Per Ardua
    It wasn't enough for you. For me, I didn't need a long painful debate nor did I need Kirk to be angsty over sending Nero on to the whatever lays beyond death. The guy was a genocidal madman who killed more than six billions beings including children.

    Kirk went further than I would have, I think he went further than most rational beings would have. Honestly, I agreed with Spock. Put the mad dog down.
     
  9. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2013
    Location:
    CommishSleer
    Are you 100% certain that it was made clear in the movie that Nero had no means to harm anyone anymore. Because I never saw that.
    Its like a policeman letting a serial killer escape whose seriously wounded because he wouldn't surrender (except many times worse). Of course the killer may never kill again but are you going to take that risk?
     
  10. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2010
    Location:
    Morrowind
    For God's sake man, there are three-year-olds to consider!!!
     
  11. Keeper

    Keeper Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2007
    Location:
    Land of Illusion
    Cowboy Diplomacy!

    It's been stated many times already, the Narada was being pulled into the singularity. Nobody witnessing the event could guarantee what they were seeing did not amount to a possible 'escape' by the Narada to heaven knows where/when.

    Could anyone calling for Kirk's head on a platter for his lack of mercy in his place live with themselves if it became known after the fact that the Narada may have survived its plunge to wreak havoc on some other time and place?
     
  12. MakeshiftPython

    MakeshiftPython Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2013
    Location:
    Ladies love Riker's beard.
    You're reading it wrong. When I said he had no means to harm anyone, I'm saying that he has no means to harm the Enterprise. At that very moment, he was no longer a threat. To take your police man analogy further, no, I do not want Kirk to let Nero escape, I want him to capture Nero. They have transporters to beam him up and put him in the brig, why not use them? It's never brought up for consideration.

    But as I said earlier, I'm not against the idea of Kirk shooting up the Narada and killing Nero, I'm just against the way it was executed (pardon the pun). I would have preferred it if Kirk went with that order treated as a last resort, that for a moment he gives it some thought and realizes that it's the only sensible option because they can't transport him and he wants to give Nero a quick death instead of enduring a slow one from the singularity (which had crippled his ship beyond repair, given that it's all happening from WITHIN the ship).

    To the real point, I want Kirk to be thoughtful about his decisions, not act so flippantly "you've got it!" just to get the audience all pumped up over the hero killing the villain, "YEAH GET HIM, BOOM BOOM BLOW HIM UP!!!".
     
  13. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2012
    Agreed. That was really one of my pet peeves. That and in ST:ID, Uhura saying "Go get him!"

    Dumb flippant action writing.

    I'm not slamming the two movies by the way.
     
  14. M'Sharak

    M'Sharak Definitely Herbert. Maybe. Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2002
    Location:
    Terra Inlandia, Kelvin timeline
    While it may fall short of being an outright flame, the word "apologists"—when used in the context of talking about Trek—always seems to read as if it's intended as a putdown. At the very least, it has the effect of making one sound as if one might be taking Star Trek and Gene Roddenberry's Vision™ a little too seriously. Please consider before choosing to use that word in this forum again, won't you?

    Thanks.
     
  15. MakeshiftPython

    MakeshiftPython Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2013
    Location:
    Ladies love Riker's beard.
    I got carried away, because a lot of times it seems folks will defend anything in these films or at least give it a pass because they think the film is fun and shouldn't be criticized, an overreaction to the flamers who always bash whatever happens in these films no matter what. At least, that's what it seems to me. If "apologists" comes off as a putdown for some folks, I suppose "Abramsverse enthusiasts" will suffice.
     
  16. YARN

    YARN Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2010
    Does nuTrek really have a moral compass?

    I mean it expresses tribal morality (looking after your own peeps - the virtue of bros looking out for their bros), it gestures at the importance of teamwork and following rules (even though Kirk is rewarded for breaking the rules too, and his rule-breaking often turns out to be "correct"), and there is lip-service paid to the prime directive, but this Trek isn't really preoccupied with morality as of yet.

    Maybe the next film will present a moral dilemma, but so far it has been the good guys working to stop crazy revenge-driven bad guys.

    At any rate, I don't see "bad morality" as a reason to object to the last two films, as they weren't really moral exercises.
     
  17. Brutal Strudel

    Brutal Strudel Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    And that is the one departure from TOS--conceived of and its best when it told complex morality plays that didn't treat killing lightly--that is truly galling.
     
  18. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2010
    Location:
    Morrowind
    You missed the part where Spock judged Kirk's orders to be immoral and Kirk later defied them?
     
  19. YARN

    YARN Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2010
    Huh, the part where Kirk defied his own orders? :confused:
     
  20. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2010
    Location:
    Morrowind
    His orders meaning orders given to him.