NuTrek references in the novels

Discussion in 'Trek Literature' started by Noddy, Sep 30, 2013.

  1. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Fleet Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2001
    Location:
    Thanks Dad USAF 1947-1972
    It's story elements owe a lot more to "Space Seed" than TWOK. (But it's still not a remake of either)
     
  2. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    Additionally it would hardly be the first movie to pay homage to a predecessor.
     
  3. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2005
    Location:
    Los Angeles, California
    Does that mean I don't get to complain about Star Trek III: The Search for Spock ripping of a whole scene of dialogue from "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" in this thread?

    Nuts. :p
     
  4. Masiral

    Masiral Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2013
    Location:
    I'm here. Where are you?
    That is not what I meant (or said) at all. You mentioned that you loathed nuTrek, so I wondering why you would know details and be able to recognize them if they showed up in other novels?
     
  5. Slyvon

    Slyvon Lieutenant Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2013
    Location:
    Cincinnati
    Wow I realize I'm new to the Trek books but I had no idea this was an event yet to come. I guess I just assumed it as something that had already happened and I haven't gotten far enough in my reading to see it referenced. So in two (story) years the following will be true:

    -The Federation is still reeling from the Borg
    -Martok seems to be hanging onto the Empire by a thread
    -Cardassia is still in ruins
    -Romulus will be destroyed
    -The Andorians are marching towards extinction

    Goodness by 2387 is there any group left doing OK?
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2013
  6. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Location:
    England
    It annoyed you, but was it enough to ruin the novel for you and wish you'd never bought it? It was an extremely minor part of the book. And what about the Star Wars and (original) BSG references in that novel? I suspect that, like me, you never even noticed them. Here is the full list:
    http://fanlore.org/wiki/Ishmael

    And by that same token, how do you feel when places or people from Deep Space Nine or Enterprise are referenced in TOS novels?
     
  7. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2007
    Location:
    In many different universes, simultaneously.
    Why would you assume I wouldn't recognize it even if I loathed it? It's like saying that because I loathe nuDune, I wouldn't be able to recognize elements of it if it showed up in other novels (yes, I've read every one of those abominable books).

    Besides... this forum is full of spoilers all over the place. Since I mainly post in the Trek areas, it's impossible to avoid seeing details of nuTrek. I knew quite a few details of the 2009 movie long before ever seeing it, and it lived down to my expectations and beyond. Why should I assume (from the spoilers and discussion I've seen here) that the second movie would be any better? Have the actors actually learned how to act in the meantime? Is Wesley/Chekov any less annoying? Have they fixed the rest of what was crap about the first movie?

    Didn't think so.

    The Doctor Who references jumped out at me because I know Classic Whovian history and Star Trek history (in-universe) are 100% incompatible with each other. They don't belong in a pro novel unless it's upfront that the work is a crossover.

    As for the various westerns... I've seen a lot of Bonanza episodes, the SW and BSG references slipped my mind (I'll have to re-read this novel, obviously), and other than a few Gunsmoke episodes, I never saw those other shows. We had a grand total of 1 or 2 channels when I was growing up and those shows were new, so I never did have the chance to see them.

    It seems like you're describing the novel version of a Mel Brooks movie, when you don't recognize most of the in-jokes.

    It would be bizarre to see DS9 references in a TOS novel (unless the novel were taking place late in Spock's life) since none of those episodes happened throughout most of the TOS time.

    References to Enterprise annoy me, since I don't acknowledge that series' validity as real Star Trek, either. It's just too out of step to have been what leads up to TOS.
     
  8. Ovation

    Ovation Vice Admiral Admiral

    So your list of "true Trek" must be incredibly short, then. At that point, one might ask, why bother with Trek at all (particularly since the overwhelming majority of Trek, in its various iterations, seems to leave you in anguish rather than amusement)?
     
  9. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2001
    Heck, much of TOS was "out of step" with other parts of TOS, since they were making it up as they went. Are they 200 years in the future or 700? Are they Vulcanians or Vulcans? Do they answer to UESPA, Space Central, or Star Fleet? Is Benecia pronounced "Be-nee-see-ya" or "Ben-uh-see-ya?" And the earliest movies were "out of step" with TOS as well -- the Klingons looked different, no recognizable technology or uniforms remained, Khan's people were no longer multiethnic, etc.

    Fictional series reinvent their details as they go. It's just part of the process of refinement. You can find many contradictions within any single Trek series, so to treat the contradictions between different series as dealbreakers is a double standard.
     
  10. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2007
    Location:
    In many different universes, simultaneously.
    TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, plus the TOS movies 1-4, and 6. Add in the assorted novels, short stories, and fanfic based on these. I don't accept Star Trek V as "real" due to the nonsense of Sybok being the offspring of Sarek and a Vulcan "princess." I've already stated my reasons for not accepting Enterprise. I have a love/hate of First Contact - love, because the music is great, and I really like the character of Lily. Hate, because they butchered the character of Zefram Cochrane. I can't stand the rest of the TNG movies (yes, I've seen all of them).

    So that actually gives me a lot of Trek to enjoy, and I am free to ignore the rest.

    Your sarcasm is noted. I'm still not in agreement with you on the issues that led to my preference not to read your posts, but to say I have a double standard just because of inconsistencies within TOS itself is nonsense. I don't have to agree with you, and you will never convince me to like the nuTrek crap. Only Abrams et. al could convince me to like it if they would actually make a good movie. So far they haven't (in my opinion, of course).
     
  11. Masiral

    Masiral Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2013
    Location:
    I'm here. Where are you?
    If you find them an abomination, why do you read them? Why watch something that you hate? I really don't understand.
     
  12. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2007
    Location:
    In many different universes, simultaneously.
    In the case of the nuDune books, I wanted to find out if they would get any better. I wanted to see if Kevin J. Anderson/Brian Herbert could demonstrate that they actually understood what Frank Herbert's books were actually saying. They didn't. Also, if I'm going to criticize something, it makes more sense if I've actually read or seen what I'm criticizing, right?

    So yeah, when I get the chance to see STID for free, I'll watch it. If I see something in it I like, I will be honest enough to come back here and say so. But I'm not optimistic that will be the case.
     
  13. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Location:
    RIP Leonard Nimoy
    Seems like a excessive amount of thought / work to put into it.

    I don't think anyone is trying to convince to like the new movies.
     
  14. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2001
    Nothing I said was the least bit sarcastic. It was a simple assertion of fact. And I'm not saying you have to like any given incarnation of the franchise -- just that continuity differences are not, in and of themselves, a reason to reject it. A story can have continuity errors yet still be well-liked. The Wrath of Khan has enormous continuity problems vis-a-vis "Space Seed" and the rest of TOS, but fans overlook those because they like it. On the other hand, an awful episode like "And the Children Shall Lead" or "Shades of Gray" doesn't have any major continuity problems and is generally accepted as part of the overall Trek universe, but is still justifiably disliked. So the question of whether one likes something and the question of whether it's part of the overall continuity are separate issues. That's all I'm saying.
     
  15. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2007
    Location:
    In many different universes, simultaneously.
    Luckily, I have the right to choose how much thought/work to put into liking/not liking something, or reading/viewing something in order to know what I'm talking about when I talk about it.

    As for people trying to convince me... of course they are. Why else are they defending this stuff?
     
  16. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Location:
    RIP Leonard Nimoy
    Did I say you didn't? No, I didn't. I was saying from my POV, that, if you really do that, then I think it's excessive.

    No one is trying to convince you of anything. They're talking about a movie they happen to like and addressing the point of the thread: whether or not Nu-Trek references are a bad thing in the novels.

    Posting on a messageboard is sort of a two way conversation.
     
  17. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Location:
    RIP Leonard Nimoy
    At the end of the day, well written is well written. A story that is solid and entertaining can withstand an in-joke or quickie reference here or there.

    I don't care what "universe" a book is set in, so long as I have fun reading it and it keeps my interest. Canon and continuity issues are of zero problem with me.
     
  18. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Fleet Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2001
    Location:
    Thanks Dad USAF 1947-1972
    I 100% approve of "NuTrek" references in Prime Trek novels.
    Robau and the Kelvin in TOS. :techman:
    Blown up Romulus and MIA Spock in TNG/DS9/VOY. :bolian:
    Kirk's parents being Winona and George. :techman:
    Uhura being a skilled linguist.:techman:

    I also approve of references from STV, Voyager, Nemesis and Insurrection and even the Alternative Factor*. (All of which I have varying degrees of dislike for.) Could be a silk purse in that collection of sow's ears.


    *Any of you authors ever tried to tackle that one?
     
  19. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2001
    Both of which originated in the novels and were adopted by the movies.


    There's one Strange New Worlds story that brings back Lazarus -- in fact, the very last story in the very last volume, "Reborn" by Jeremy Yoder. And there must've been some reference to the episode in the Crucible trilogy, since it referenced every episode. Beyond that, though, I don't think it's been touched, which is fine with me. As I've said before, the episode contradicts canon, depicting dilithium and antimatter differently than every other episode does, as well as being inconsistent and incoherent within itself. So I treat the whole thing as apocryphal. I did, however, incorporate elements of the engineering set seen in the episode into my description of the engineering section in Forgotten History, though just in passing.
     
  20. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Fleet Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2001
    Location:
    Thanks Dad USAF 1947-1972
    But ST09 canonized them. (cue angelic choir)
    Which means they are retroactively part of the contamination