Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemesis?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by slappy, Nov 11, 2012.

  1. trevanian

    trevanian Rear Admiral

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    The script is pure Logan, has just LOADS of artificial heart.
     
  2. GalaxyX

    GalaxyX Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    LMAO!!! :guffaw:
     
  3. Anji

    Anji Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    Completely agree. I'd like to add that it also seemed that the cast was not taking the movie seriously. I mean, I think they knew this was going to be a no-brainer and they were going to get a paycheck no matter what.
     
  4. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes


    I'm pretty sure they knew they were going to get paychecks for the other three movies, too.
     
  5. GalaxyX

    GalaxyX Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    Personally I get the feeling that they hated the script, but were basically forced to do it. Either that or no pay. I don't blame them.
     
  6. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes


    I thought Stewart and Spiner had a lot of input into the script? And even if not, it basically ended up as the "Picard and Data show" yet again, so I don't see why they would have hated the script.
     
  7. Lance

    Lance Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    It might have still ended up as "The Picard And Data Show", but the irony is that possibly the best of all the deleted scenes was a Picard/Data scene. Stewart spoke a lot about this particular scene when promoting the film, and I assume he would have been quite annoyed that it didn't make the final cut.
     
  8. trevanian

    trevanian Rear Admiral

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    The long 'cut scenes' version of that scene is ENDLESS! There's a similar long scene with Picard and Dougherty in INS that is absolutely great by comparison (not that I think much in INS is great, to be sure), but I think this shows how Baird never had any business being on a film set.

    He couldn't stage the scene well enough to keep it interesting. Some of that is less than sparkling writing (we are talking Logan here, who outside of the guys writing the AbramsTrek movies has to be the hackiest of successful screenwriters), but most of it is Baird just not doing the job of a director and getting the magic happening.

    His track record: three movies directed, all ably supported by Goldsmith but all entirely lame and boring, when on paper they should have been at least borderline interesting.

    To be honest, I'm no fan of him as an editor either. I mean, he got TREK as a 'thank you' for 'saving' TOMB RAIDER. Man, I actually SAW that movie in the theater! That was saved? JUST HOW BAD WAS IT BEFORE HE GOT INVOLVED, ANYWAY?
     
  9. Ketrick

    Ketrick Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    What didn't go wrong with Nemesis? Between the script leaking, the lack of marketing, the release date, and the director being completely wrong for the film, it's a near miracle that Nemesis wasn't ten times worse and that it didn't permanently kill the franchise.

    As for John Logan and his script, it was flawed, but could have easily been fixed. I really believe that he got Trek, but he tried to throw in everything; the captain's chair, the bridge, the warp core, the ship, and the entire fleet; and no one reigned him in, other than Stuart Baird, but his horrendous editing job compounded the problem by cutting the heart out of the script and film and either alienated the cast to the point they phoned in most of their performances or he simply didn't know how to direct the cast at all.

    The Argo scene, I really didn't mind. Captain Picard seemed to have mellowed somewhat over time, even making mild jabs at Riker so for me the scene worked fine and wasn't out of character, but rather showed how he had changed between films. I didn't mind B-4 either. If I remember right, the Juliana Tanner android said something about there being two or four prototypes before Lore. Also, I believe in either an early draft or deleted line, that B-4 spoke of lots of lots of places he had been and how he ended up on the world he was found. As far as Lore goes, he would have been extra baggage. Plus, he had a perfect end in Descent, Part 2 and didn't need to come back. The mind rape scene was beyond horrible. The shuttle escape was unnecessary, but fun. Data's death itself wasn't bad, but lacked emotion and was easily preventable by using a shuttlecraft and its transporters.

    As far as Shinzon goes, the writing could have been better for him and the directing too, but I think Tom Hardy expressed his essence well enough. Something that may just be me, but in some ways I feel the Viceroy was the real villain or at least should have been. Shinzon was his own man, but the impression I got was that it was the Viceroy who truly poisoned his mind, who molded him into being locked into his ways, and was subtly manipulating him. It would have been a bit better had the Viceroy not been played as subtly as he was and I blame that on the director, not Ron Perlman.

    It also would have been nice had Senator Tal'Aura or Commander Suran been Tomalek instead and Donatra had instead been Sela. For me, it would have been more poignant had Sela been the one shown to have gained a grudging respect for the Federation and finally accepted her half-human heritage.

    Anyway, all of this is just my two cents.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2013
  10. Australis

    Australis Writer Admiral

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    So we'll probably get Baird and Logan for the next Bond flick. Oh joy.
     
  11. Cinema Geekly

    Cinema Geekly Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    Just for fun I recently ripped my Blu-Ray copy on to my PC and spent about four hours doing a straight up rough cut edit of the movie. Nothing like The Phantom Edit just a slice-and-dice and I managed to keep the main story intact while totally removing the B-4 story all together.

    Aside from a few other small edits and minus credits i was able to lock the story down to a near TV length (usually shows are about 44 minutes) my cut topped out at 55 minutes or so.

    It doesn't make it great, but I found it more bearable without the silly B-4 jokes and the whole strange Argo scene.
     
  12. trevanian

    trevanian Rear Admiral

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    If so, then that ship will sail w/o me. TREK is pretty much over for me outside of old TOS and DS9 and a couple of the features, and Bond is not even Bond anymore, not even close, so I will just have to settle for Timothy Dalton and Sean Connery Bonds to re-appreciate.
     
  13. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes


    interesting that you think Dalton Bond is "real Bond" but not Craig.
     
  14. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    How? Picard's escape from the Scimitar depends entirely on the B-4 subplot.
     
  15. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    But than again, the entire movie depends on Picard being an action hero. They could have written that he simply picked the lock to his restraints with his nails. Makes about as much sense as seeing him wield a disrupter rifle in one hand and a disruptor pistol in the other while running in a dark hallway and still have better aim than the Remans. Those aliens who are bred for war......
     
  16. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    No.

    You can easily make the case that there needed to be a new script. But you can't excise a huge subplot from the final cut of the film and have it make any kind of sense. Sorry.
     
  17. Cinema Geekly

    Cinema Geekly Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    When I mean removing the B-4 story I literally meant every scene that involves B-4 and the alteration of any scene where the name is brought up (oddly enough this was only once when Data was trying to convince Picard that he and Shinzon are not one and the same).

    It isn't a seamless cut if you are really paying attention but you don't notice a single change to the core and focus of the story. It really plays as a packed TV episode.
     
  18. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes


    Picard has played the role of action guy before, rather recently at that point in FC and INS. He'd also done it in episodes like "starship mine." Just because it's not a side of him we saw a lot doesn't mean that it was never a part of him. He's a starship captain, he should know how to fight. Having him take on Shinzon and the Remans instead of Data though, THAT was ridiculous.
     
  19. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    This is as good a place as for this snark, since I don't deem it thread-worthy, but: Security??? Hello? Anti-boarding parties?? Anti-boarding technology? It's a good thing the Remans don't really seem particularly interested in actually taking the ship since THEY only send a handful of people. So the best a Soverign Class starship can muster is a handful of people who don't seem to actually be trained in shit, don't have any concussive weapons or armor...and are being supplemented by two senior staff.

    Same for FC, but that's a little more excusable...regardless there are...800? crewmembers vs what appears to be 20 borg INCLUDING assimilated crewmen. Use some imagination people. Replicate some serious firepower for just such an occasion. Grenades, don't you people have any drones FCS? etc...etc..
     
  20. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    Realistic security has never been Trek's strong suit. :techman: