Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemesis?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by slappy, Nov 11, 2012.

  1. M'rk son of Mogh

    M'rk son of Mogh Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    Keep repeating yourself, it doesn't change what we all see in the movie.

    You are correct. Shinzon's motivations were about liberating the Remans and opposing the Romulans. That part of the story still occured, it was the opening scene.

    He succeeded. He won.

    The rest of the movie is about his craziness AFTER that.

    "I defeated Romulas, now I defeat earth!" He's just defeating them differently. Everything you want is right there. You just seem upset that the part you find most interesting was over in 3 minutes.
     
  2. DarKush

    DarKush Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    I would have rather had NEM ripping of Undiscovered Country than ripping off TWOK, which is what they did to disappointing results. At least if they had ripped off Star Trek 6 we could've seen another major historical Trek moment on screen and it would've served as a far more fitting 'final' mission, by making peace with arguably TNG's second biggest adversaries (got to put the Borg first).

    I think you did a good job of explaining how Shinzon was shaped, but it doesn't take away the fact that he had no beef with the Federation. So what he didn't share their values? The more emotional, visceral beef he had was with the people that had enslaved him. And though he wiped out the Senate and had some of the military supporting him, there was no way he could rest on his laurels. If the movie had been logical, there would have been some discussion at least about the fall out of his attack and the need for him to solidify his support on Romulus and within the Empire.

    I'm not sure that expansion was or should've have been his goal. I liked the conversation that Shinzon had with Picard and how he talked about how everything he was doing was for the Reman people, to ensure their freedom. How exactly do you do that by attacking the Federation?

    Shinzon was a poor attempt to make a Khan on the cheap while using the Romulans because of the fan interest. I wanted to like the character. I did like Tom Hardy's performance, but how he came to power and what he did with that power didn't make much sense for me.

    Further, why would the Remans want to destroy the Federation? They really had no beef with them, and since the Federation was opposed to the Romulans, could possibly see them as allies. Granted there might be anger that the Federation never helped them but still, I don't think this anger would compare to the very people who had enslaved them for centuries.

    Regarding Nero, I think you are being unfair to him. Granted his portrayal wasn't great-either in the acting or writing department-but still. He had more than a shitty day. He lost his homeworld, his wife, and his child. And I could see him more easily blaming this on Spock more so than Shinzon blaming his situation on Picard. And so Shinzon took away from Spock what he felt Spock took away from him. Where I think Nero drops the ball is not telling Romulus about the Hobus supernova once he goes back to the past. I know he was supposed to be in a Klingon prison-but that was not shown on screen-and even if it were, he couldn't have stopped over by Romulus or sent them a message before he attacked the Federation? So I agree with you that Nero's reasoning about securing Romulus's future by attacking the Federation made no sense, but I still think his vendetta against Spock was more logical than Shinzon wanting to wipe out Earth.

    Regarding Kirk v. Khan, I'm fine with what we got, because both actors sold it. And when I got to see "Space Seed", which I did after watching TWOK, it added more perspective. Absent seeing that movie though, I think the way they did it in the film was fine. Another Kirk/Khan fight might have been nice, but I would rather them not come up with some improbable way for Kirk to win or escape, because I think Khan would've ripped him limb from limb. I also liked Kirk and Chang. I think Chang is often overlooked as a Trek villain. He was one of my favorites.
     
  3. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes


    How is Nero's vendetta against Spock in ANY way logical? The supernova was a natural event, and Spock was doing his genuine best to help the Romulans and he only failed by being too late.


    It's like trying to get revenge on a firefighter who was racing to your home to put out a fire, but he was just a little late.
     
  4. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    Nero believed the Federation deliberately waited until after Romulus was destroyed before stopping the supernova.
     
  5. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    I absolutely hate to admit this, but Nemesis has actually started to grow on me and I think it's aging far better than any of the other TNG films. While it is a major swing-and-miss, it actually tries to be about "something". That "something" being sibling rivalry and its something far easier to relate to than pretty white people being evicted. :shrug:
     
  6. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes


    that's "Countdown," that's not from the film.
     
  7. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    No, it's all in the scene when Nero gives Pike the Centaurian Slug.
     
  8. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes


    hmmm.. I don't remember that. I'll have to go back and check. That would give him a slightly better motivation but still wouldn't make many of his actions in the film make any more sense.
     
  9. jayrath

    jayrath Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    Completely agreed as to "pretty white people." Siblings I don't see. A clone and a chip-challenged eary model are not siblings, and they can't compare to TNG's very fine "Brothers." That theme in NEM is invisible to me.

    But again, I very, very loudly agree with your other observation.
     
  10. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    Don't be ridiculous. He overthrew the Preator, but that just meant that someone else might overthrow him. Installing himself as Praetor made him dependent on the Imperial Fleet for their support, and that meant that the liberation of the Remans was still a work in progress at best. Saying that his taking the Praetorship meant that he'd "won" is as ridiculous as saying that African Americans aren't still oppressed just because the President is black.

    That's why it makes no sense that he'd suddenly fixate on Earth: There's no indication earlier in the film that he gives a damn about Earth, and no reason for him to care about Earth when the liberation of the Remans wasn't done yet.
     
  11. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    When was the last time you watched the film? Most of your inquires and grievances can be cleared up by a viewing of the film. Pay attention especially to the conversation Picard and Shinzon have about their true nature and shared attributes.
     
  12. M'rk son of Mogh

    M'rk son of Mogh Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    Why would anybody compare that? Shinzon is closer to a dictator than an elected official. Now you're just reaching since simply saying "I have a blind hatred and that's that" is tougher to admit. :p

    It's really quite simple from a storytelling perspective (and also fictional, the politics of Star Trek have never been close to realistic, maybe that's what makes it difficult for some people? That whole FICTION thing? I dunno).
     
  13. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    I welcome a specific quote that addresses my arguments.

    No. I am making a comparison between one society being led by a member of an oppressed community, and another.

    Randomly insulting your debate opponents by claiming they don't understand the concept of fiction or suspension of disbelief does not actually advance your argument.
     
  14. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    but the comparison is invalid. Obama is an elected president who has term limits, so... yeah, it's a given that he'll have to rotate from power. But like the other guy said, Shinzon is a dictator who relies on military power and the allegiance of the Remans. Again, Shinzon won his battle with the Romulan government in the first scene of the movie.(combined with some back-door deals beforehand of course) WHY would Shinzon have "made a move" against the Romulans when he already had what he wanted from them?


    It sounds like your criticism is "but I wanted a totally different movie." And that's certainly a valid sentiment, but it's not really a criticism of the movie.
     
  15. M'rk son of Mogh

    M'rk son of Mogh Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    ^^
    Yup!
    Remember the time Obama didn't kill Bush and everybody else to take over the country?
     
  16. timtonruben359

    timtonruben359 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    I didn't actually hate Nemesis it was an OK movie, it was certainly bigger scale than Insurrection or Generations but it felt as though the script needed one more tight draft. Now, I learned something interesting a few years ago I was at a panel with Brent Spiner and Marina Sirtis and they mentioned that there was something like 4 drafts of Nemesis written by Logan. Spiner, Stewart and Logan liked the 4th draft because it was the tightest and more epic and worked out a lot of the kinks from earlier drafts, however, for whatever reason Rick Berman decided to go with an earlier draft of the script. Spiner mentioned the 4th draft didn't have the B4 element and the ending of the movie was more complex and Data's death bigger. It was likely costs related that Berman decided to go with the smaller version.

    Nemesis tanked at the box office for a number of reasons. It had a bad release date pitted against two of the biggest movies of the year. Also at the time I think a lot of fans were upset with the franchise as a whole. Quality of Trek had been on the decline for the last few seasons of Voyager and Enterprise and I think there was burn out and hostile attitude towards Berman. I remember negative fan reaction to the movie online months before it even came out!

    I've always been sad that this is the way TNG went out. I felt as though there was one last TNG story to be told. The Undiscovered Country of TNG if you will.
     
  17. Midas

    Midas Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    Nemesis had lots of problems, agreed, though I did like the Donatra character.
     
  18. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes


    I think the state of the franchise and the lack of effective marketing had more to do with the box-office performance than the release date. After all, it was only released against "Maid in Manhattan" in its opening week and it still lost to it.
     
  19. SchwEnt

    SchwEnt Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    ^^^ I'll always remember that, the first time a ST movie didn't open #1 at the box office. And then losing that spot to "Maid in Manhattan"?? Jennifer Lopez trumps Star Trek.
     
  20. cardinal biggles

    cardinal biggles Patron Saint of Dangerous Driving Premium Member

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    That doesn't really hold water when you consider that earlier Trek films held their own against juggernaut competition (Wrath of Khan opened a week before E.T. in 1982; Search for Spock was sandwiched between the releases of Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom and Ghostbusters in 1984). Blaming the failure of Nemesis on Harry Potter and LOTR (plus there was a James Bond film, too!) is weak tea. It failed because it sucked balls and not even Trekkies wanted to see it after the first weekend.