Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemesis?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by slappy, Nov 11, 2012.

  1. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    There's a lot of places to point the fingers in regards to Nemesis. But the foundation of it's failure did lie in the premise of the script. You can't just handwave in a villain like this and declare it intimate and personal without it also seeming forced and artificial. Tomalak and Sela, despite being able to count the number of appearances each had on one hand, at least had something of a history with Picard that you might have staged a personal connection with.

    Suppose Tomalak was forced into early retirement because of his shaky history in the border incidents with the Federation. He blames Picard for this and is the focus of his revenge and desire for redemption. After he and a loyal group of officers manage to secure control of a few vessels and maybe an installation covertly, he launches an operation to steal Lore and reactivate him(I think the actor would've been available) as the perfect lure for Picard and company. It would've made more sense than being able to detect a random android a sector away.

    So we have two classic villains, one wanting revenge for being shut down and the other wanting revenge and to display the Enterprise's broken hull on Romulus for redemption confronting the heroes. That might've been a fun movie and one full of personal connections and conflict with the heroes instead of a clone that "feels" like Picard and an android that fell out of a plot hole in the sky.
     
  2. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    well, I'm not sure there actually WAS tons of stuff that went "wrong." Sure, Shinzon's motivations needed work, it's a bit too much of a "Picard and Data show" yet again, and it "borrows" from TWOK too much, but it also takes risks, it's ambitious, it's dark and cinematic, and it's a big improvement over INS.
     
  3. Maurice

    Maurice Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    The idea that we as-the-audience have to be familiar with the villain is silly. We don't have to have seen the previous relationship to grok it. So long as the story is well written and the conflict is interesting we can meet the villain when the hero does and still be right there with him/her. The problem is that the idea of the Picard clone as an antagonist is silly and illogical. As to the themes, hell, fenetically identical twins don't end up the same even when raised in the same homes, let alone being raised in utterly different alien environments. It was a dumb idea wrapped up in car chase and shuttle chases and 'splosions.
     
  4. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    With the original pitch for NEM being the ENT-E crew fighting against their Mirror Universe counterparts. We should be thankful they didn't follow through with that idea with how the DS9 crew ruined the Mirror Universe with their multiple stories. From there it was going to a long lost son Picard never knew he had, but that became a clone of Picard because it seemed more practical than the long lost son angle, and was easier to digest than a fanboy Mirror Universe movie.
     
  5. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    Yeah space orcs and mini me as the villain digested real well. ;)
     
  6. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    Oooooh that is artic ice cold man. Lmao good show.
     
  7. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    Nah, but the storyline of Picard thinking he had a clone/offspring had also already been done, and not that long before, in the TV series. "Bloodlines": The return of Daimon Bok ("The Battle"), trying to trick Picard into thinking he had a long lost son with Miranda Vigo.

    Not to mention that Data having a brother was old news, too.
     
  8. USS Intrepid

    USS Intrepid Commodore Commodore

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    I really don't mind Nemesis. Indeed, it's probably just nostalgia but I do enjoy watching it. I still believe there's a much better moie than we got hidden away in there somewhere, and I'd love to sit down with all the original footage and recut it. ;)
     
  9. slappy

    slappy Commodore Commodore

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    Agreed.


    I disagree. People point to Picard as being written out of chacracter, but he's different than he used to be. It makes sense. He's not the same guy. Time has passed. Picard from Encourter at Farpoint isn't the same guy from Nemesis, nor should he be.


    Didn't bother me. You don't have to mention every single race for that race to be a factor. Not to mention, they were underlings, undesirables, slaves. There's no reason for you to have seen them. Made mention, maybe, but it's hardly a requirement. They don't constantly talk about albino people on Breaking Bad, but they exist. It just never comes up.


    I agree about Shinzon, but not necessarily the other two. A superweapon is kind of a sci-fi staple. It could've been done much smarter than that, but in and of itself I don't have a problem.

    The Schimitar makes sense to me. It's not so much a superweapon as a one-of-a-kind gigantic tank. A fleet of starships could've cut it down in no time flat, but the Enterprise was alone.
     
  10. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    For me, the biggest problem with NEM is that Shinzon's motivations are cloudy. We're told he self-identifies as a Reman and is a Reman nationalist... but out of nowhere, we discover that he hates Picard and wants to destroy Earth.

    I mean, I guess I can understand the idea that he'd irrationally come to hate Picard. But the idea that he'd turn his genocidal rage against Earth instead of Romulus as the end of his life approaches just doesn't make sense. Romulus has been oppressing and terrorizing the Remans for centuries; as a Reman nationalist, Shinzon's goal should be to destroy all life on Romulus before he dies.

    ETA:

    And the purple rubber outfit. Seriously, whose idea was that?
     
  11. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    I was right there with you man. Shinzon's motivations should've been the genocidal destruction of Romulus based on his background. Him hating Picard and wanting to destroy Earth makes sense though. It's not about justice or revenge for the Remans. It was about Shinzon destroying everything Picard stood for. Shinzon forging his own legacy and having Picard's erased along with Earth. Shinzon says this in the movie.

    He didn't attack the Romulans because they supported his coup and he needed their support to fight the Federation. In the ENT episode "The Aenar" the Admiral Valdore said the Romulan goal was unlimited expansion and that conquest is the best goal for Romulans. With that mindset the Romulans in NEM supporting a war with the Federation isn't unlikely. Gain control of the entire Alpha and Beta Quads with the potential for a Gamma Quad invasion.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2012
  12. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    Well, that's what I'm saying -- why is he so fixated on Picard, Earth, and the Federation? Why does he hate the longstanding enemies of the culture that brutally oppressed his adopted people and sent him to die in a mine? It makes no sense; as a Reman nationalist, his rage should be directed at the Romulans, not the Federation. Hell, even if he doesn't really care about the Remans, his rage should still be directed at the Romulans, because they're the ones who enslaved him.

    And "the Romulans" didn't support his coup. A faction of Romulan Imperial Fleet admirals supported it, but they were planning on using him as their puppet, and he knew it. Both sides were planning to betray the other.
     
  13. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    Sorry that should've read " Shinzon's motivations should've been the genocidal destruction of Romulus based on his background." I edited to reflect it. Well Shinzon says the echo triumphing over the voice was a goal for him. Legitimizing his existence by destroying Picard. Forging his own legacy and erasing everything Picard stood for. If Earth and the Federation were destroyed then everything Picard did, all the treaties, discoveries and battles he won become annulled since no one will remember him.
     
  14. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    "Witness the victory of the echo over the voice." - Shinzy had a HUGE inferiority complex, because of his shitty life in Reman mines, because he's "just" a clone. And through his incredibly twisted worldview, saw the solution in utterly annihilating Picard's life, his world, any trace of his comparitively cushy, easy, privileged life. He wanted to bring humanity down to his level, so to speak. Show them what it's like to live without comforts of Earth and the Federation.

    Is it really any less believable than Hitler's quest to exterminate the Jewish?
     
  15. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    Proven himself? No, nononononoono. Skyfall may have had it's fun moments, but the writing was not one of it's best points. We have supposed professional and experienced characters make totally moronic decision that almost rivals that of Prometheus stupidity. And to give credit to John Logan alone is pretty drastic when you consider the fact that two other writers wrote this film and Logan was brought in to make changes, and his changes are so obvious.

    John Logan is not so much a writer who can write stories on his own, he's a writer who works to indulge the people he works with. With Nemesis being dictated as a Picard and Data storyline, he pretty much writes the movie as though Data and Picard are the only characters who matter, and like in Generations, there should be moments where the actors can indulge themselves in things that we've never seen their characters actually do. Kirk LOVES to ride horses (since when?) and Picard LOVES to ride four wheeled cars (since when?).
     
  16. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    Well, yes, because Hitler was a member of a privileged oppressing group, not an oppressed group. It just doesn't make sense that Shinzon would direct his genocidal urges at anyone other than the people who had actually enslaved him.
     
  17. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes


    you're assuming that Shinzon's motivations have to be rational. I think the Hitler analogy is actually a decent one. Hitler had no personal reasons to hate Jews, and his "racial theories" were the worst sort of pseudoscientific garbage. And, having fought alongside Jews in WWI, he KNEW that the "stab in the back" was a myth.

    Shinzon may have had no RATIONAL reason to hate Picard and to take "revenge" by going after Earth, but the "resentment of the voice by the echo" thing makes a twisted sort of sense from a psychopath's point of view.
     
  18. M'rk son of Mogh

    M'rk son of Mogh Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    Since when do people who do horrific evil deeds make SENSE?

    They never, ever make ANY sense to me, no matter what rationale they try to use about their upbringing or world views.

    Shinzon, as far as I'm concerned, fits with the best of them.
     
  19. slappy

    slappy Commodore Commodore

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    Also, it would've been a very good Trek moment to have Picard helping defend Romulus from Shinzon just because it's the right thing to do. The fact that'd he put his crew's life on the line to fight beside their enemy could've been a big step toward peace with the Romulans. Also, why not have Picard get through to him at the end? That might've been a nice way to end the TNG legacy.
     
  20. Joker

    Joker Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

    Oh, fuck "understanding Trek".

    Bring someone who understands story telling.