No Fear of Death?

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by ZapBrannigan, Feb 22, 2013.

  1. Nero's Shadow

    Nero's Shadow Captain Captain

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    Yep good practice for them the no win scenario always made them understand the fear of dying and death !!!
     
  2. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Quite. That, along with the essential meaninglessness of a "no-win scenario" (in Treklit, haven't there been cadets who have beaten it without cheating?) makes the value of the test questionable at best.
     
  3. Metryq

    Metryq Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Only if the subjects know going in that "this is the famous Kobayashi Maru test." Ideally, the test should be completely unexpected so that the subject is not even aware he is being tested. So, Kobayashi Maru would be only one no-win scenario.

    (Technically, the scenario shown in the movie is flawed because the Neutral Zone between Klingon and the Federation was imposed by the Organians and is not a no-fly zone. The Neutral Zone between the Federation and the Romulan Star Empire is another matter.)

    It all depends on how one defines "win." Did Spock "win" his test at the end of TWOK? I highly recommend the live-action SPACE BATTLESHIP YAMATO (2010) even for people who are not fans of the '70s anime. Main character Kodai repeatedly faces "no-win" situations throughout the movie. At one point he "cheats," just like Kirk. The only time he did not "win" was when he ran away—but even that situation put him in the right place at the right time.
     
  4. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The Organians never impose a NZ between the Federation and the Empire.

    :)
     
  5. Metryq

    Metryq Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    There is a treaty in the Franz Joseph TECHNICAL MANUAL describing the zone ("750 parsecs in width"). Although that is not "canon," it is a logical extension of the episode, since the Federation and the Klingons knock heads in later episodes (e.g. "Day of the Dove", "Elaan of Troyius"). Obviously the Organians did not continue to immobilize Federation and Klingon vessels everywhere, even though that was Ayelborne's original statement.

    The "Organian Peace Treaty" is mentioned specifically in "The Trouble with Tribbles." Although, it is interesting that the bar fight could even take place (illustrating just how much hot water Scotty was in). I guess the Organians have nothing against drunken brawls, but draw the line at ulama and anything more intense.
     
  6. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The Trouble with Tribbles spoke of a disputed territory that both the Federation and the Empire both claimed. If there were in fact a clearly drawn neutral zone between the two, there how could there be any disputed territory?

    :)
     
  7. Metryq

    Metryq Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    (Sigh.) Does this really need to be spelled out? It seemed clear enough from "The Trouble With Tribbles." From the Franz Joseph TECHNICAL MANUAL:

    And from the opening scene of the episode:

    Or to borrow one of Bruce Lee's lines from ENTER THE DRAGON: "The art of fighting without fighting." The Organians are forcing the two powers to compete in a productive manner.
     
  8. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    (Sigh) It probably shouldn't, but I'll do it for you anyway.

    The tech manual is not canon, just like print fiction in general is not.

    There was nothing in The Trouble with Tribble to indicate that the Organians ever created a Neutral Zone between the Federation and the Empire.

    Picard stated that the Federation in the 24th centruy was spread across 8,000 light years, The FJ tech manual shows the Federation in the 23rd century as a disc of unknown thickness, that's nearly 31,000 light years across. And that both the Romulan and the Klingon NZs are over 2,400 light years wide.

    Condition 2: No armed hostilities may take place place between the Klingon Empire and the United Federation of Planets.

    Don't get me wrong, I actually love FJ's tech manual, but it is just a piece of print fiction.

    :)
     
  9. Shawnster

    Shawnster Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    When, during the Kobyashi Maru simulation, Savvik orders the Enterprise to enter Klingon space, Spock reports "we are now in violation of treaty..."

    It's been assumed/implied (and quite logically) that he was referring to the Organian Peace Treaty.
     
  10. Metryq

    Metryq Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    And the opening scene to "Tribbles"? That's not canon? The Organian Peace Treaty is invoked again over the Klingons using K7 for shore leave. Or perhaps we should assume the treaty applies to Sherman's planet and K7 only, and nowhere else.
     
  11. A beaker full of death

    A beaker full of death Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The movies were the first time there was ever a mention of a Klingon neutral zone -- just as they were the first time there was ever a Klingon Bird of Prey. At the time these things jumped out at us, the fans.
     
  12. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^ I stand by my original statement; "The Organians never impose a NZ between the Federation and the Empire."

    That there is a Organian Peace Treaty is a matter of canon, and not in dispute. Althought what the FJ tech manual has to say about what is in the treaty is disputed by me. But again not that there is one.

    :)
     
  13. Captrek

    Captrek Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Spock does a poor job of articulating his position.

    Obviously, the simulator room isn’t very frightening. What is frightening is Balok telling you that you have ten Earth time periods known as minutes to prepare for your destruction. That’s when you think back to your training in the simulator room and focus on your duties in this real no-win scenario the same way you did in that simulated no-win scenario. Based on Kirk’s behavior and the behavior of his crew during the test, I think he failed. By clowning around during the test and claiming that he won by rescuing the ship when rescuing the ship isn’t the point, Kirk showed that he truly had failed to learn the lesson.