Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by Into Darkness, Feb 24, 2014.
Ee'd Pleb Nastay, bustin' out with some yang free-stylin'. boooeey!
^She's not icy enough.
A movie's antagonist doesn't necessarily need to be a specific person with a specific, morally questionable motivation.
An antagonist can be drawn as a more abstract threat.
Still maintaining tension, but not being a "bad guy" exactly.
A villain could be a specific person (Khan, Admiral Marcus, Nero, Shinzon, Ru'Afo, the Borg Queen, etc) who is attributed as being morally questionable, against the purity and 'goodness' of the protagonist characters.
A villain could be, though, an abstract concept as well. And it often was, in TOS the television series and occasionally in the TOS movies as well.
THE MOTION PICTURE has a villain (V'Ger) whose motivations are not particularly evil, but who is still a threat to the Federation despite not being a 'bad guy' per se. THE VOYAGE HOME, likewise, has got a probe that threatens Earth, despite not in itself being a specific person, although it has got a specific motivation (find the whales).
THE DOOMSDAY MACHINE, one of TOS's most lauded television instalments, features a large entity of sorts whose motivation is to be self-sustaining, to gain 'nourishment' to stay 'alive', which it just happens to do by destroying planets and starships. The fact that the titular doomsday machine isn't a recognisably humanoid 'villain' (heck, the fact that it arguably isn't even *sentient*, as such!) doesn't lessen it's impact as a villainous force that the Enterprise needs to Stop At All Costs.
When people call on the next movie to feature something other than another Khan/Nero/Shinzon/Ru'Afo/etc style "bad guy who is after REVENGE", what they're really asking the producers is to be more creative, to use Star Trek's format in a way that it has been in the past, to portray a wider galaxy than just out own little corner of it. Give us something new, something different. Strange new worlds, new life, new civilizations. New motivations and new threats.
Believe it or not, it can be done.
Or they could just take the easy way out, and have the Enterprise fighting off a fleet of warships commanded by some moustache twirling villain out for revenge. Yawn.
Like others have said, I too, hope it is The Gorn. I want to see their home world of dinosauria and other giant fauna. I think it would be cool as all hell to see Kirk/Spock/Bones land in a shuttle there, trying to alter the course of the war they tried to start in TOS, over that starbase. A lot of potential ...
Wake me when it's over.
I had a long post that I just decided to delete. Instead I shall only say this.
We went Into Darkness last time, now I think it's time to step back into the light.
No big evil star ships. No cities being torn asunder by a giant saucer-turned into bench-saw hacking down sky scrapers. No super-human super-acrobatics. No evil admirals or evil anybodies with the need to blow everything up.
...Though I wouldn't be against a Klingon adversary, the likes of a re-imagined Kor, Koloth, or Kang. Giving the Enterprise an even match, but, not as the central focus of the story.
I just want to see something closer to a great adventure story. Something that touches on the human condition and our sense of wanting to understand the world. Basically a page out of what the new Cosmos will tap into in a few weeks. (Hopefully! )
The last time TPTB used that logic we got floating androids and boob jokes.
I don't mean to antagonize, but... Your outlook is that having a more positive, adventure focused turn, instead of the darker, grittier action tone will equal... boob jokes?
Besides, TC(urrent)PTB are going to put in a boob joke somewhere anyway. Or, at least, some manner of titillation.
Especially for the 50th, where the knee-jerk reaction will be to fill the story with nothing but references, easter eggs, nods, winks... I'd go the other way, i'd push for a really good Star Trek story with just a very few really organic connections to the past, and with the emphasis on Trek. I wouldn't even have Earth in the film at all. In classic TOS style the first thing you'd see is the Enterprise fly into view to the classic fanfare.
There's a lot of juicy visuals to be had here. Even juicier emotional moments. I submit the Niburu sequence as to what kind of Trek movie that could be like.
Just a quick aside, mid rant, those of you who think a Trek movie lacking a central antagonist couldn't work. Just think about how well that opening scene worked. Why? Because the core of the scene is human(and Vulcan) drama. There's a legitimate conflict at work there. The visuals are exciting, and put you on the edge of your seat. It's all based in the drama of the situation. You don't need mustache twirlers and super starships to have a good time in a science fiction film.
Heck, you could have, for the sake of the 50th, Old Spock back again, discovering something of immense importance, some great cosmic mystery(Something that is not of his universe or time, and as such he would not feel compelled to be silent), and only the crew of the Enterprise can solve. You could involve the Klingons through this aspect, too. Getting wind of who Spock is they try to chase him down and abduct him as he races to meet the Enterprise. So the Klingons wind up involved/in pursuit.
I agree with the comments that there shouldn't be a typical 'Villain-is mad-about-something-and-wants-to-destroy-Earth-for-no-other-reason-that-the-audience-is-from-Earth.'
Villains can be 'mother nature,' or a phenomenon (like the first two 'Genesis Wave' books) that gives the characters something to fix, and possibly learn from over the course of the story. Of course, that would mean the writers actually have to - gasp! - think outside the box and give us an original story that central to this reboot. (Since, according to Abrams, this 'reboot' was all about wiping the slate clean and giving us ORIGINAL stories!)
Klingons have been so overused in Trek, I would hope they can use some other alien races if they - TPTB - need some humanoid antagonists or a non-antagonistic alien race to feature prominently.
Sorry, but it's only a matter of when they'll return.
What happened to El Auria, that's presumably in the 2260s. But was out of range in the Prime Universe. Just refugee ships journeying for decades. Well, now the ships travel at transwarp and Starfleet has made its presence felt, further out than before.
A mounting threat from a truly zombie reinvention of the Borg. Not a Queen in sight. Why do they need to be led anyway? They're more of a disease, than a race.
I have to agree about getting rid of the whole QUEEN idea. I don't know what it is about STAR TREK aliens, they are not allowed to be very alien, for long. Like Vulcans. They are just pointy eared Humans, in ENTERPRISE, pretty much, who like to use the catchword "Logic" alot. The Klingons were cool, too, before Worf turned them into people who sniff eachother like dogs, when they're in heat. When these aliens are seldom used, little shown and hardly known, they work out the best for the show, I feel ... Definitely right, though, get rid of the Borg Queen. However, Alice Krige is an awesome actress! I loved her in the DUNE series.
Nooo, dear God in heaven!! I love Malcolm McDowell as an actor, but Soran was one of the weakest "villains" in Trek. So poorly executed. He was just a cypher of a villain, an excuse to bring Kirk and Picard onscreen together for the hand-off. The gunfight in the middle of the desert was painful to watch. As soon as I saw the bridge crossing that span, I knew someone was going to either blow it up, get thrown off it, or die on it.
Little did I know...
Soran could work, but not as a villain. The Enterprise gets sacrificed to stop the Borg invasion of El Auria, the crew save Soran.
Later an enraged khan-blood enhanced Kirk, takes control of the Vengeance to battle the 23rd century borg and defeats them.
The consquencies of saving El Auria means Kirk from the future does not die, leaving him open to return in the next installment.
I like it.
The Borg queen was created out of necessity. The Borg were conceptually flawed before her creation.
No they weren't. Everything about them was designed around a decentralized concept. Their ships, their will. The queen was the antithesis of their initial concept.
There's no such thing as a decentralized will. That's a paradox.
Oh, I wanna see this. And it can be a comedy. And I know who can play Harry Mudd!
Cedric The Entertainer
Cheech Marin (he can be like his character in From Dusk 'Til Dawn and be the greeter at Mudd's brothel, and say what he said in the movie [which I won't repeat here; this is the link!)
*Yes, we have a use for Eddie in a Star Trek movie!
Separate names with a comma.