NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

Discussion in 'Trek Literature' started by Trek Survivor, Jun 17, 2011.

  1. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    You asked earlier why so many people are convinced it'll be Khan or Klingons. Joke or not, some fans haven't stopped talking about the rumours stemming from that little joke ever since it was made.

    Why not? They planted a seed - and, in absence of any other information, it grew.
     
  2. Yevetha

    Yevetha Commodore

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    Source?
     
  3. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    Do a Google search. When the blonde Alice Eve was cast, the media release specifically mentioned her character was new to the Star Trek canon. Despite that, some people are keen to lay odds on Rand, Marcus or (as name-dropped in the "Where No Man..." #1) Dehner.
     
  4. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    But that's not a rational or informed conclusion. It's ignorant in the extreme to think that it represents their actual plans, because it was made before they'd even begun outlining the second film! That's my point. It's not that I don't know what they're basing it on, it's that I don't understand the kind of sloppy, lazy thinking that leads to such a gross misinterpretation, let alone the desperation to cling to a wrong idea even when there's abundant evidence to prove its wrongness. The problem with so many people in the world is that they never learn critical thinking, never learn how to distinguish good information from bad. They tend to assume the very first thing they hear is the truth and ignore everything that comes afterward. And that's how foolish rumors get started and propagated.


    Because it's a question of intent! Saying that they teased it implies that it was something they actually planned and they were deliberately dropping hints about it to the audience. But that is the wrong conclusion to draw. It is a stupid and ridiculous conclusion because they hadn't worked out the plot yet! For months and months after that, the filmmakers told us repeatedly that they hadn't started writing the script yet. Hell, the delays in settling on a story dragged on for a very long time. So you'd think the fans would've caught on that those early "teases" were not teases at all, that no intelligent observer could possibly conclude that they represented the filmmakers' firm intent. It's a foolish and irrational conclusion to draw. That's my point. Don't you care about the difference between valid conclusions and foolish rumormongering?
     
  5. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    "New to canon" is a very strange term. Why not just say "a new character"?

    Could she be a character borrowed from a novel, or other non-canon sources?
     
  6. Biffette

    Biffette Captain Captain

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    M'Ress?
     
  7. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    We are discussing how rumours start. That's never "rational or informed". That was my point!

    Ignorant of me, or ignorant of the fans perpetuating the rumours?

    Exactly!

    My sloppiness or the sloppiness of the people asking if it will be Khan/Klingons?

    Which was my point. It feels like you're directing your frustration at me. You asked why people persisted in thinking it was Khan/Klingons. I said I thought it was due to the teasing by the writers.

    Sigh.

    You've focused on the term "teasing". If I chose the wrong word to describe the writers having deliberate fun with fans, please suggest an appropriate alternative.

    Of course, but having seen that the fans over in the ST XI section of TrekBBS have never stopped speculating about Khan since that original jokey post by Bob Orci, I stand by my observation.

    If they'd never mentioned Khan that day, we'd probably never have seen that rumour get more strength than any other other possibly-returning villain.

    Sigh. I really don't recall if that was their precise quote, but they were talking to diehard fans. Fans who use and misuse the term "canon" all the time.

    IIRC, they were meaning there was at least one character, new to the JJ Universe, who had previously appeared in Season One of TOS.

    No, she was never in Season One of TOS.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2012
  8. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    No one said what they said was fact...and a joke can be a tease as well. Writers of screenplays talk about possible plans way before they start on a project. We know that Kurtzman and Orci have talked plenty before they actually started work on the script. I don't see the need to get upset about it. Joss Whedon has started talking about "Avengers 2". Before he left the project, Favs discussed a bit of "Iron Man 3". Shane Black talked about his plans for "Iron Man 3" as well a bit. It doesn't mean what they say will be in the final shooting script. Sigh. Once again I think this is a case of over blowing a non topic lol.
     
  9. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    Maybe Australians use the word "tease" in a different context to Americans?

    There were so many other synonyms I could have chosen. Why do I never realize this on the day I dare to post?
     
  10. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    But that's exactly my point -- that people who took those early, joking comments about Khan as some kind of hard evidence that Khan would actually be in the film were jumping to a careless and misinformed conclusion, because it wasn't evidence of a damn thing. And to Therin, for the second time, I'm not saying I can't understand where people got the idea, I'm saying I can't understand why they didn't know better, why they couldn't tell that was an incompetent conclusion to draw.
     
  11. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    'Cause people are going to speculate on any little bit of information they take in or out of context. It is just the nature of fandom and being excited for a particular film. Khan has been in the conscience of fandom since the end of the first film.
     
  12. Biffette

    Biffette Captain Captain

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    Right, but if she were in Season One of TOS she wouldn't be "new to canon" per the context of my post. (See below.)

     
  13. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    I don't think it's valid anymore to count TAS as "not canon," given that Roddenberry's '89 memo decanonizing TAS has been routinely ignored for a long time now. Back when GR was alive, there was some validity to his attitude that TAS and the Harve Bennett movies were partly or entirely non-canonical, since he, the creator of the series, didn't produce them personally (and the same might've gone for TOS's third season to an extent). But by now, Trek canon has grown far beyond "shows produced by Roddenberry" or even "shows produced solely by Desilu/Paramount" (since the Abrams movies, like TAS, are produced by an outside company in partnership with Paramount). So I don't think there's any legitimate reason to consider TAS as not being part of the canon. It's onscreen material, it was authorized and co-produced by Paramount, it had the participation of the original cast, and it's been at least indirectly referenced in multiple other canonical works. It's even covered on the "canon-only" sites StarTrek.com and Memory Alpha. The only basis for not counting it as canon is Roddenberry's memo from over two decades ago, but that memo has been disregarded since his death, and he also considered some of the movies to be non-canonical as well, so his opinions clearly are no longer binding.
     
  14. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    I raised the point that I felt all the Khan/Klingon speculation had stemmed from Orci's joke. I don't believe I said anything about why some fans "don't know better, nor why they were drawing "an incompetent conclusion".

    It feels to me like you shot the messenger.
     
  15. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    ^I wasn't directing it at you at all. I was just trying to explain what I meant. I was never asking where they got the idea; I was saying I didn't believe they could be so foolish as to think that joke somehow indicated the actual plot of the movie. You seem to have misunderstood that and thought you needed to explain to me where they got the idea. So it sounded to me like you were defending them for drawing the conclusions they did. So we were talking past each other. My words weren't about seeking an explanation. I knew exactly what the thought process was that leads people to buy into these silly rumors; I'm just expressing dismay and disbelief that people could jump to such irrational conclusions. And since you misunderstood, you took a position contrary to what you thought mine was, which I misunderstood in turn as being a defense of that sloppy thinking that I was lamenting.
     
  16. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    When you said:

    it seemed directed right at me. Hence my bewilderment.

    I know it was a joke, but it was "teasing" in my book, and they've enjoyed stirring the pot ever since, watching fans fall over themselves rumour mongering, keeping them distracted from where the real clues/action might be.
     
  17. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    I took "teasing" in the promotional sense, as in hinting at something they were actually doing. Consider the context of the discussion: the question of whether a rational observer could validly conclude that those comments were actual evidence of the content of the next film. The whole point of this is that there are people who evidently thought they weren't joking, who actually took those comments as evidence that Khan would be the villain.

    Honestly, Therin, you're way too defensive. You're so preoccupied with whether a given comment is an insult or attack against you that you're not noticing that the conversation is actually about other people and what motivates them. Try not to worry so much.
     
  18. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    Sigh. I thought that was my point.

    Forget it.
     
  19. All-You-Can-Eat

    All-You-Can-Eat Cadet Newbie

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    Did #7 get released today? comiclist.com doesn't have it for today, and has it listed as TBD for their extended list.
     
  20. Daddy Todd

    Daddy Todd Captain Premium Member

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    #7 didn't make it to my comic book shop today, and it's not on Preview's New Releases list for this week, so I'm hoping we'll see it next week.
     

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