New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by neoworx, Jul 13, 2013.

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  1. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    I've been meaning to ask one thing. The first edition erroneously claimed that Bruce Hyde appeared in 'The Man Trap,' which I pretty quickly debunked. Did Cushman revise this claim in the second edition or, like his 'Alternative Factor' claim (which I was also critical of) stick with it?
     
  2. Myko

    Myko Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    It is interesting. The passage reads as if he has some background information. He mentions the scene has been shot during The Naked Time's shooting week as a "pick-up", which is an extreme feat of speculation if all he has to go by is that he "recognizes" Bruce Hyde in the episode. Even if it had been Hyde and not Albright, that doesn't lead naturally to the fact that it was filmed as a pick-up.

    It seems likely that some scene for The Man Trap was filmed during The Naked Time, but that this one is not it.
     
  3. Crisp Crinkle

    Crisp Crinkle Admiral Admiral

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    Based on what evidence?

    Information given about the scene has already shown to be wrong, and speculation about why someone wrote what they did doesn't constitute evidence.

    If such a scene exists, what is it?
     
  4. Myko

    Myko Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I don't know what the scene is, and neither does Cushman by the looks of it.

    My point was that this sequence of events:

    1) Cushman sees Budd Albright in "The Man Trap", thinks it's Bruce Hyde
    2) Cushman infers that a pick-up scene was filmed during "The Naked Time".

    Is more unlikely than:

    1) Cushman reads a source saying pick-up scene for "The Naked Time" was filmed during "The Man Trap".
    2) Cushman sees Budd Albright in "The Man Trap", thinks it's Bruce Hyde and concludes this was the scene in question.

    I'm not suggesting this is evidence for anything, but Occam's Razor and all that. Cushman would have to provide that source or admit to making it up.
     
  5. Crisp Crinkle

    Crisp Crinkle Admiral Admiral

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    So, you're not suggesting that we drink, but here's our Kool-Aid? Good grief!
     
  6. Myko

    Myko Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I don't follow your reaction or understand your question really.

    I'm just speculating on why those lines are in the book.
     
  7. Crisp Crinkle

    Crisp Crinkle Admiral Admiral

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    Well, you also said that you think that the scene exists, despite also saying that the one in question is probably not it, and despite having no idea what it is. In implying what you think is probably true by alluding to Occam's Razor, you did more than merely speculate.

    The purpose of Occam's Razor is to assign weight, as to which explanation among alternatives is in fact more likely, so it's more than a little disingenuous to say that you aren't offering evidence, while at the same time saying however that Occam's Razor would say thus-and-so. Ttrying to have it both ways was the problem I had with what you were saying.

    Moreover, based on what you said, I don't see any reason whatsoever to suppose that the scene exists. Occam's Razor applied in that instance doesn't yield the result you suggest, since your list of simpler possible explanations for the error (which certainly exists, at least in the name of the actor) isn't complete.

    The only thing that would make me believe that such a scene exists is actually naming it (and citing evidence).
     
  8. Myko

    Myko Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    All right, I see what you're saying. I was offering the presence of the passage in the book as evidence for such a scene existing. I was a bit sloppy with my words there, attribute it to the fact that evidence and proof is the same word in Swedish if you want. :lol:

    Feel free to offer more.
     
  9. Crisp Crinkle

    Crisp Crinkle Admiral Admiral

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    Precisely.
    I decline, as it would serve no constructive purpose. (Yes, I knew I might be asked, when I said that.) Especially in a thread such as this, when there has already been heated contention of the facts, there is no need for pure speculation in the service of what amounts to only an academic issue.

    I believe that the best remedy is simply for the author to correct all uncovered mistakes in future editions. The author himself can choose to offer explanations for why they occurred, as he sees appropriate.
     
  10. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    This is probably what happened. Take a look at this shot in 'The Naked Time' and this shot in 'The Man Trap.'

    I'd have to check the archival records to be sure, but it's not hard to believe that NBC wanted a short expository scene with the bridge dropped in at the beginning of 'The Man Trap' when it was decided to broadcast it first.

    Lazy fucking work on Cushman's part, though. And, unless someone said, I'll repeat my question -- does he double down on this claim in the revised and expanded edition?
     
  11. Crisp Crinkle

    Crisp Crinkle Admiral Admiral

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    I'm convinced. Thank you!

    Seeing those pictures makes all the difference.
     
  12. Myko

    Myko Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Yes of course, it's almost too obvious. Shame on Cushman for not catching that.
     
  13. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    To be fair to Cushman, this is what he writes (on p.173 of the first edition):

    So, Cushman correctly identifies the shots with Spock, Uhura, and Leslie on the bridge that were taken during production of "The Naked Time."

    Given the fact that the scene wasn't in the shooting script, I wonder if it was really "postponed?" It makes more sense to me that it was only decided to do that pick-up later (or, alternatively, those were just alternate takes from "The Naked Time" dropped into the edit of "The Man Trap" to make it work, and not episode-specific pick-ups). But, that's just speculation at this point.
     
  14. Crisp Crinkle

    Crisp Crinkle Admiral Admiral

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    Thank you, that makes the situation clearer. And with what Harvey has now posted, I feel freer to state a more probable explanation for the misunderstanding than the two Myko presented: At least some of the issues are a result of our own misunderstanding! And that's a misunderstanding that I'll admit to being a part of. The scene thought to be with Hyde wasn't the reason for concluding that pick-ups for TMT were shot during TNT.
     
  15. Maurice

    Maurice Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think this whole issue again points to the real problem with this book which is that the way it's written it's difficult to separate documented facts from Cushman's suppositions or extrapolations.
     
  16. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    ^^
    That, with a little helping of Cushman inserting his opinion without need (i.e. "He was right.").
     
  17. CrazyMatt

    CrazyMatt Captain Captain

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    Trying to focus....
  18. Indysolo

    Indysolo Commodore Commodore

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    I'm reading the "Who Mourns for Adonais" sample in the new Geek Magazine and at one point it says "Pevney" when it (correctly) points our earlier that Marc Daniels directed this episode.

    Also it says TV Guide "signaled out" "Shore Leave" instead of "singled out". I hope these are corrected before it goes to print.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2013
  19. Maurice

    Maurice Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^^^I assume this is the print version and not the website?
     
  20. Indysolo

    Indysolo Commodore Commodore

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    Yes, I subscribe.
     
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