Nemesis

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by wolf123450, Mar 22, 2013.

  1. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    What we need is an app that tells you were on a dvd to scratch with a safety pin to remove a specific track or episode so you don't have to deal with or accept that it exists.
     
  2. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The more years I spend with VOY the more I want to smack Chakotay hard. Or at the very least shake him.
     
  3. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Sorry, but I consider "Mortal Coil" one of Voyagers worst episodes. :thumbdown:

    teacake wrote
    Why? Personally I find Chakotay a good character. In fact, he's number 2 on my favorites list. :techman:
     
  4. Captain Kathryn

    Captain Kathryn Commodore Commodore

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    I liked Nemesis, decent Chakotay episode. But I think it was good not really because of Chakotay but more of the fact that during the whole time watching, you're thinking the same thing he is...but then at the end you're nearly just as surprised. I think the episode would have been decent no matter who was down there with the fighters. The fact that Chakotay knew his way about a battle area and had that tribal-ness about him made him a better fit for that episode I guess, moreso than other characters. I'm not sure if I really liked the episode because of Chakotay though. It really could have been anyone in that situation and the episode would have had the same meaning. But he did make a decent attempt at helping the people and I felt pretty bad when you find out at the end that he had been duped. :(
     
  5. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Because he always seems asleep or at best muted in his response. He lacks passion. He just stands there, the most you get out of him is a slightly higher voice register to indicate he's all torqued up about something.

    I just want to shake him and yell, "YOU'RE A FRAKKING TERRORIST!!! PUT SOME HEART INTO IT!"
     
  6. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    What I love about your avatar Captain Kathryn is the Doctor is clearly looking in the mirror.
     
  7. Captain Kathryn

    Captain Kathryn Commodore Commodore

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    Haha...just wanted to show some EMH love today.
    I think because I watched Tinker, Tenor, Doctor, Spy last night lol.
     
  8. Captain Kathryn

    Captain Kathryn Commodore Commodore

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    I don't dislike Chakotay by any means (obviously since I'm a J/C shipper), but he is not believable as having been a Maquis ship captain at all. He seems like the type that would have preferred sitting on the couch eating chips or something than ever captain an outlaw Maquis ship to the Badlands. If anything, I could see B'Elanna commanding that ship lol. Chakotay is just too blah about everything.

    He shows a low amount of anger and aggression so far as I could see. It shows up once in a while when he boxes or calls himself a warrior...but to be honest, he's not. I don't dislike him for that. It's just not believable.

    In Caretaker, he shows no objection to suddenly listening to and obeying Janeway's orders. He just relinquishes his ship and his power to her and rejoins Starfleet lol. In SOME episodes, he stands up to her. But usually he just acts comatose.

    He has his good moments though, like in Nemesis. And I am glad that he respected Janeway and didn't give her much of a hard time...he's just...not believable as an angry Maquis outlaw lol.

    But I can't hate on Chakotay. He was a good first officer to Janeway and in my imagination they lived happily ever after... :D
     
  9. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    According to Picard, a good first Officer is someone who tells you that you are a wrong son of a bitch who then confines you to quarters until you see reason... And that is not Chakotay.

    Worf tried that with Data and data threatened to demote him and tap Geordi up to bat.

    Riker tried that with Jellico and he got benched.

    Max Burke tried that with Ransom who bent over and touched the back of his ankles prepared to be taken.

    Miles towed the line fine when Captain Dee was in Charge, it was her 2nd officer who was rumbling about a mutiny... of course... Did it seem like Miles was first officer when Ensign Ro clearly out ranked him? That's cold. No wonder she was spoiling for a fight.

    Who was Bev's first officer in Descent?
     
  10. Captain Kathryn

    Captain Kathryn Commodore Commodore

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    Hehe...well, there was the episode when Janeway confined Chakotay to quarters. :biggrin:
     
  11. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    "Please don't execute Federation citizens, it's not cool."

    "GO TO YOUR ROOM!"

    (That's a direct quote, right?)

    Seriously, would Chakotay still have shuffled of to his quarters like a punk still if Kathryn had competently succeeded in Murdering Noah rather than fumbling the headshot like a noob?

    I mean, he's a Cyon, but still: C'MON!
     
  12. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Chakotay was a freedom fighter, not a terrorist.

    Because he was a Maquis commander doesn't mean that he has to get oubursts of anger all the time. Maybe he is one of those people who don't have to raise their voices to get respect.

    And he did punch Dalby in the face in "Learning Curve" and have an argument with Torres in "Parallax".

    As for the episode itself, I think that the point with the whole episode was that little twist at the end when we learn that the Vori aren't such good guys after all. Personally, I like such stories. I remember really enjoying the move "High Crime" where the supposedly innocent guy actually was the bad guy in the story. Not to mention that in "Nemesis", we never found out if the Kradin were the good guys either

    And I really like the Vori language! :techman:
     
  13. Mage

    Mage Commodore Commodore

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    It's war. Contrary to populair believe, there are no good guys in a war. Horrors are commited by both sides, and what can look like the 'good guy' can be something completely different. THAT'S the general idea behind this episode.
     
  14. Captain Kathryn

    Captain Kathryn Commodore Commodore

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    I agree the Maquis was more of a freedom fighter group than a terrorist group. Chakotay is definitely not a terrorist.

    I can't see him hurting anybody who did not cause a fight first.
    He's not a mean and violent person by any means.
     
  15. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    there are no good guys in war? Tell that to Blacks liberated by Union soldiers, or concentration camp prisoners liberated by Allied armies. "Both sides do bad things" isn't equal to "there are no good guys in war."
     
  16. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    eh, once you start bombing weapons depots and blowing up ships as an independent group and not at the behest of your government someone is going to call you a terrorist. I am a Maquis sympathizer but they were not a peace movement.

    I would have liked to have seen a Chakotay who was not a mean and violent person (which we did see) who was also driven to choices that tormented him in order to defend a cause he believed in (which we didn't see). Could have been great stuff.
     
  17. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    No good guys actually, maybe more evil and less evil.

    General Sherman would probably have been labeled as a war criminal after scorching Georgia and South Carolina, if that had happened today.

    As for the Allies, there were atrocities against the German population during the war, the meaningless destruction of Dresden for example. Not to mention the genocide committed by the Soviets in the eastern parts of Germany in 1944-45.

    War brings out the worst of all people involved.

    teacake wrote:
    I agree that the Maquis weren't a peace movement.

    But I don't see them as terrorists either.

    Al Qaeeda are terrorists, the Baader-Meinhof RAF in Germany in the 70:s were terrorists, IRA can be labeled as terrorists and if we stick to Star trek, the Ansata Movement can also be labeled as terrorists. They all attacked and murder innocent civilians.

    While the Polish resistance movement Armia Krajowa (Home Army) and the French resistance movement in WWII (the original Maquis) can be labeled as freedom fighters because they attacked military targets.

    There were a small Communist group in Poland during WWII called Armia Ludowa (People's Army). They can be labeled as terrorists because they attacked civilian Germans in order to provoke even more brutal retaliation from the Germans against the Polish population. by doing so, they expected that the Poles in their hatred against the occupiers should start to support the People's Army. That failed because the Home Army had the most support from the Poles.

    As for Chakotay, I don' think a Chakotay tormented by sins in his past would have been a better Chakotay than the one we saw in the series.
     
  18. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The Maquis didn't just target the Cardassian Military.

    Their chief target was the opposing Cardassian farms competing for resources on the same planets.

    Civilians vs civilians.

    Problem is that it became a conflict orchestrated by third parties (3rd and 4th?) quite quickly, that the Cardassian Military were arming and bankrolling the Cardassian farmers under the table just like the Maquis were being funded and sourced by Starfleet howsoever discreetly.
     
  19. Mage

    Mage Commodore Commodore

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    What Lynx said, is basicly correct. To many levels of evil in war. Those some soldiers you mention, also commited terrible acts of violence and horrors to liberate those you mentioned. War is not right or wrong, black or white, light or dark. It's everything in between that.
     
  20. Mage

    Mage Commodore Commodore

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    As for the subject of terrorists....

    So many resistance movements that are now called heroes and liberators were called terrorists during their actual existence. They were called so by those they resisted, and by the civilians they claimed to try and liberate. Why? Because of their methods, which are basicly the same methods that terrorists use. It's something that was touched upon in DS9 at times. Kira was a resistance fighter to the Bajorans, a terrorist to the Cardassians. Who was right and who was wrong?