NEMESIS: the good, and not so bad.

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by ChowdaHead, Oct 16, 2013.

  1. JamesRye

    JamesRye Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    [/QUOTE]
    At least in this film they didnt sit round and tried to fire back at their unseen enemy[/QUOTE]

    Space is pretty big, you cant expect to hit something that's invisible at a distant range by pure luck.

    Even if a ship is only 10km away, that means it could actually occupy anywhere in 3-dimensional space within 10km. That's 10km * 10km * 10km, a very large volume indeed.



    To further illustrate my point, try playing battleships with just one battleship occupying one square. There are 100 squares on a battleship board, so that is 1 in 100 times that you'd actually 'hit' the ship.

    Now even if you randomly hit the ship, you dont know what vector its moving along (unless it is continuously firing and maintaining a constant speed). Without triangulation (3 points of contact) you cannot accurately track the ship.

    Star Trek VI got it right. Kirk did the right thing by reversing the ship (and thus minimising the target).

    Nemesis on the other hand made the space-battle look like a video game.

    Sorry for the slight rant ;)
     
  2. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Some people have mentioned the wedding, I feel it would have been nice to see the actual wedding ceremony, and cut back some on the wedding reception.

    Lose Data's singing, keep Picard's best man toast where the Titan is mentioned, and the fact that Riker and Troi are leaving the Enterprise.

    Insert an explaination as to exactly how Worf is there in uniform.

    ^(oo)^
     
  3. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    They should've opened on Betazed, using creative camera work to get across that people there are naked for the wedding ceremony, added in that Picard was retiring and handing the keys of the Enterprise to Riker upon their return to Earth, keep "Blue Skies", don't care why Worf was in uniform, pushed the battle with the Scimitar all the way to Earth and sacrificed the Enterprise and crew while saving Earth.

    Go out with a bang instead of a whimper.
     
  4. lurok

    lurok Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    :bolian:. He probably didn't even have final cut.

    I sometimes wonder if Baird haters have ever seen any of his other work, either as director or editor.
     
  5. Hober Mallow

    Hober Mallow Commodore Commodore

    Meh, didn't need one really. By "Insurrection," the explanations were getting silly. "I was in the blah blah system and..." Obviously he returned to Starfleet and the Enterprise by the time of "Nemesis." What else does anyone need to know? I don't think anyone besides DS9 fans were wondering anyway.

    Worf's presence is the least of the film's problems.
     
  6. Lance

    Lance Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^ Agreed, it was clear that by Insurrection they were just kinda, "Hey, just put Worf in there, nobody will care why" about it anyway. :)

    (IMO it wouldn't even be an issue if they hadn't costumed Worf in a Starfleet uniform. It'd have been completely acceptable for Worf to just be there for Riker and Troi's wedding, but then happen to still be around when the Shinzon situation rears up, and he offers his services accordingly (but remains a civilian). His role in the script could therefore remain the same without it bothering the continuity of how he left DS9.)
     
  7. LMFAOschwarz

    LMFAOschwarz Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I just remember for the first time, really, I was basically looking at my watch waiting for the movie to end. :(

    Oh, and regarding Worf...would it be at all customary for a former service member to wear the uniform at an official or formal function? I'm just imagining a former police officer wearing the uniform at, say, a funeral of a former colleague.
     
  8. suarezguy

    suarezguy Commodore Commodore

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    The good parts were Spiner playing Data seriously, Crusher's scenes and the ship battle in the end; the crew's reactions to Data's death were OK. The rest, especially the other action scenes, seemed too going-through-the-motions.

    Edit:
    I don't think that sort of continuity is so important that not referencing it is disrespectful (and a reference to Lore could have been confusing to new/casual viewers) but Spiner's acting as Lore does make both B4 and Shinzon even more underwhelming.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2013
  9. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Commander Red Shirt

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    Wow, I've never seen that scene before. It totally should have been in the movie!
     
  10. Cyrus

    Cyrus Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Nemesis was a decent movie.

    Baird didn't do a good job with the actors (which really hurt the movie) but he did give the film a more cinematic look than most Trek movies that preceded it.

    Loved the dune buggy scene, and also liked how Baird created the bright look to contrast the dark look of the rest of the movie. The space battle at the end was fine too.

    There were many talky scenes in the movie, and the deleted scenes that I saw were also talky. So including all the scenes would have created more pacing problems for the movie. Even Logan said he agreed with the cuts. Including all the scenes for a special longer home video version would be OK but for the theatrical release they had to cut some. Maybe they cut the wrong scenes, but (IMO) they had to cut some of the talky scenes.

    The Picard clone plot was a bad idea. If I were in charge I would have vetoed that idea right from the start (as well as fountain of youth idea for Insurrection). Tom Hardy did the best he could with the role.
     
  11. Chensams

    Chensams Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I just rewatched it for the second time last night. Lifelong TNG fan and I didn't even bother to see it in the theaters because I heard how bad it was. When I originally watched it on DVD, I thought it wasn't that bad. Rewatching it Blu Ray last night, I guess some of the special effects were good (some). I liked that Riker and Troi were progressing in both life and their careers. The senate scene was good.

    As far as the bad, too many characters were short changed with screen time. The villian really wasn't that interesting. I didn't like the dune buggy scene.

    I rewatched all 4 Blu Rays with my daughter and of the 4, the lighting on this one, particularly on the Enterprise, was the worst. Way too dark. It was hard to get a feel of the Enterprise.

    Originally my biggest issue was Data dying and the inclusion of B4 and that was one of the reasons I didn't bother to see the film when it first came out. When I first watched it, I wasn't as mad since they make it fairly obvious that B4 is slowly turning into Data with his memory engrams. However, it basically makes the emotional impact of Data's death pretty much pointless and a ripoff of TWOK's ending.

    But hell, I happy Data is still alive and kicking...
     
  12. GalaxyX

    GalaxyX Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I disagree.

    In TWOK, it was pretty clear that the movie intended for Spock to stay dead (with maybe a string of copout to be used just in case). But TWOK ended as hopeful as it could possibly end, considering the subject matter.

    Nemesis on the other hand, ended horribly depressing, emphasizing particularly that Data's death was tragic, and took a toll on all his friends.

    There is no effort to give us a hopeful ending at all except for the very lame scene of B4 whistling Blue Skies (We know B4 is basically a primitive version of Data hardware wise, how could he ever become Data again without some intervention to upgrade his positronic nets, or whatever)

    Anyway, bottom line, even if B4 was an acceptable cop out to revive Data, as far as the movie is concerned (to all his friends) the entire adventure was a horrible defeat and the loss of their friend permanent, which equals to a horribly depressing feeling on with the movie is content to leave that way.

    I wanted to watch the TNG crew have one last victory, but the movie felt like I watched their permanent defeat.
     
  13. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    As for the deleted scenes, the one thing NEMESIS does NOT need is to be LONGER! And the data scene of him drinking with Picard is so patronizing. I really hate John Logan's script for this movie. I hate that Ron Perlman was utterly wasted in NEMESIS, too. What offends me the most, as a lover of movies and a fan of TNG is how the cast is allowed to look old and just bad, in general. The lighting, the makeup ... they could've taken a page out of TMP in this regard! Gates and Marina, especially, looked so bad ... it was heart-breaking.

    I hated the convenience of one major character's duplicate finding another major character's duplicate - completely by chance - without any explaination for it, whatsoever. Just happens to fit into Shinzon's plans because, you know, it's in the script. It's so lazily written this script, not just in this context, but throughout, with homages and borrowed lines and themes from other STAR TREKs ... John Logan actually pats himself on the back for this garbage, as does the cast, who let's him hang out with them, as the token nerd.

    The soundtrack even sounds lazily written: TMP cobbled together with standard, Hollywood music. Another thing I hate really bad is Picard's "Best Man" speech, bragging on himself for thirty seconds, before he remembers what he's there for and throws in some half-hearted sentiments to the bride and groom ... just an aweful motion picture on its own and a major dissapointment as a STAR TREK film.
     
  14. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    I'm pretty sure B4 being deposited on Kolarus II was done by Shinzon. How else would he have reprogrammed him?
     
  15. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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  16. GalaxyX

    GalaxyX Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    :(

    Sadly, I completely agree with this.
     
  17. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The evidence presents itself. Oh! And another thing ... if Shinzon bothered to investigate the ENTERPRISE crew - which he apparently did - looking for the crumpet, surely he would've discovered and/or realized that several of the extras onboard were smokin' hotties. But he stops at Troi and decides she's the most beautiful creature in all Creation. Troi's being allowed to look so aweful here, that this doesn't make any sense, to me. Marina's always been an exceptional beauty, that's a fact. But she did age - and when she's not allowed to look haggard and used up in this picture, she's got enough makeup on her to stop a bullet.

    I justify and explain this by way of the Viceroy's apparent desire for her, who himself, is no kid. His psychic bond with Shinzon may have influenced him, in this matter. The Viceroy's participation in - and apparent direction of - the psychic sexual assault sequence(s) would tend to support this theorem. Speaking of assaults, even the CGI orgy representing this "epic" space battle looked surprisingly bad. The computer art nature of the effects is a little too apparent, for the most part. I despise how the quantum torpedoes just splat on everything, as indicated by sound. It is not, at all, powerful or destructive sounding ... "FIRE!!!" shouts Shinzon ... and ... splat/splat/splat/splat with the quantum torpedoes and all for 20 minutes!!! Hated it.
     
  18. Chensams

    Chensams Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I was just referring to the subsequent events and movies and how it shaped the end of TWOK. After STIII, we knew that the pan in to the torpedo was foreshadowing his eventual return. Same with B4 singing "Blue Skies".

    Other than that, it wasn't anything like TWOK. TWOK's ending and Shatner's speech was amazing. Data's death was completely shortchanged.

    Concerning B4, Data states that if the mapping is successful, B4 would have all of his abilities which Geordi replied "but he will have your memories too". They clearly meant for B4 to become Data in the event another movie was done or to setup hope for Data's continued future. However, it had no resonance, no emotional impact. Just the ultimate deus ex machina.
     
  19. Hober Mallow

    Hober Mallow Commodore Commodore

    Exactly. The best director in the world couldn't have redeemed this piece of shit script.
     
  20. MakeshiftPython

    MakeshiftPython Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    A good director would have at least demanded rewrites. A director doesn't have to settle with what he has. I don't blame Logan so much because he was working with a director that shouldn't direct and a producer who doesn't know how to write. I'm sure had Frakes directed and Berman was less insistent in being involved on the development of the script (along with the demands by Stewart and Spiner), that Logan might have turned out something better. SKYFALL is a good example of when a writer like Logan is paired with a competent director and producers (though I'm sure trevanian will greatly disagree with me on that). I remember first hearing the news of Logan writing SKYFALL that I took it as bad news, mainly because I only knew of him through NEMESIS. Then came the second shock, that SKYFALL was actually good, which made me reevaluate what the hell happened with NEMESIS.