Nelson Mandela has died

Discussion in 'Miscellaneous' started by Candlelight, Dec 5, 2013.

  1. Candlelight

    Candlelight Admiral Admiral

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    Breaking now.
     
  2. Gingerbread Girl

    Gingerbread Girl Fleet Admiral Admiral

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  3. Coloratura

    Coloratura Snuggle Princess Premium Member

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    Sad news. :(
    May he rest in peace.
     
  4. The Grinch Doctor

    The Grinch Doctor Two Hearts Too Small Premium Member

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    Very sad news.

    Rest in peace, Nelson Mandela. :(
     
  5. Zulu Romeo

    Zulu Romeo World Famous Starship Captain Admiral

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    Just found out about this. RIP Madiba. :(
     
  6. auntiehill

    auntiehill Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Even though we all knew it was coming, it still made me very sad. What an incredible man.
     
  7. stoneroses

    stoneroses Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I time to reflect on his life and think of his family.
    A great statesmen. I am not sure we will see his like again anytime soon.
     
  8. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    He was awesome and had much to admire.
     
  9. ElimParra

    ElimParra Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Very sad news. RIP
     
  10. TedShatner10

    TedShatner10 Commodore Commodore

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    An end of an era, but a 95 year old man dying makes me think of accomplishment rather than deep sadness (like with the other celebrities who died suddenly, many decades younger than Mandela this year - Iain Banks, James Gandolfini, and Paul Walker, etc).
     
  11. Owain Taggart

    Owain Taggart Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    He was a great man. He left behind a great legacy.
     
  12. Bah Humbug

    Bah Humbug Admiral Admiral

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    Rest in peace Mr. Mandela.
     
  13. rhubarbodendron

    rhubarbodendron Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    hamba kahle, tata :(
     
  14. Tora Ziyal

    Tora Ziyal Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Amazing man, amazing legacy. RIP.
     
  15. Mister Spock

    Mister Spock Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I'm sorry, but the man was a terrorist who, in his time as leader of the MK, orchestrated the bombing of civilian targets and executions without trial. Yes it was right for the ANC to fight Apartheid, but when you kill civilians you lose all legitimacy.
     
  16. Coloratura

    Coloratura Snuggle Princess Premium Member

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    Legitimate sources, well cited, please. I mean, after all, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. While Mandela even insisted he was no saint, and he did, at times, advocate violence, you seem to be portraying his life as that of a bloodthirsty tyrant.
     
  17. Mister Spock

    Mister Spock Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial, he had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilising terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists.

    - Church Street West, Pretoria, on the 20 May 1983

    - Amanzimtoti Shopping complex KZN, 23 December 1985

    - Krugersdorp Magistrate’s Court, 17 March 1988

    - Durban Pick ‘n Pay shopping complex, 1 September 1986

    - Pretoria Sterland movie complex 16 April 1988

    - Johannesburg Magistrate’s Court, 20 May 1987

    - Roodepoort Standard Bank 3 June, 1988

    Tellingly, not only did Mandela refuse to renounce violence, Amnesty refused to take his case stating "the movement recorded that it could not give the name of 'Prisoner of Conscience' to anyone associated with violence, even though as in 'conventional warfare' a degree of restraint may be exercised."
     
  18. Ó Méith

    Ó Méith Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    So since the British army killed civilians on Bloody Sunday and consequently denied it for 38 years. They have no legitimacy. Not to mention Bomber Harris, and all the misdeeds of the British Empire.
     
  19. rhubarbodendron

    rhubarbodendron Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Mister Spock, your sources are not quite correct or you might have misinterpreted them. Or perhaps you accidentially accessed documents from a smear campaign.

    He was a co-founder of the umkhonto we sizwe, however at that time they restricted themselves to sabotage acts against the racist government. The terrorist acts you mentioned happened later, when Mr Mandela had already distanced himself from them.
    Before that he had worked as a lawyer and specialized in defending victims of racism and working against the apartheid government, for which said government kept trying to get him into prison but for a long time failed to construct a watertight case against him. They only succeeded in 1964 and he was sentenced to lifelong imprisonment for sabotage. In his final speech at court, when he was facing the possibility of being executed, he did indeed speak of the necessity of an armed fight agaist the government since peaceful means had not worked. But that was not meant to make people start terrorist acts but rather as a defense of a possible civil war (like the Namibian liberation war. Namibia was under South African occupation back then and around 1964 the resistance went up to a warlike dimension that lasted till the late 80s).

    If you check the dates you cited you will see that Mandela can impossibly have participated in the terrorist attacks. From 1964 on he was continually imprisoned in different locations, mainly on Robben Island.
    In April 1982 he was transferred to Pollsmoor Prison in Capetown where he remained till December 1988
    After he got TBC there he was moved to Paarl where he stayed imprisoned till Feb., 11th 1990.

    You will admit that - particularly in as tightly controlled an environment as ZAn prisons were back then - one can not throw a bomb on people or orchestrate terrorist acts and executions without trial while being imprisoned hundreds of miles away.

    I wholeheartedly agree that those deeds of the MK were absolutely inexcusable, but we must not blame a parent for the acts of an evil child.


    The fact that Mr Mandela received the Nobel Price for Peace supports his relative innocence. You don't get that price with a terrorist past.

    (edit to add my sources:
    For the 1964 speech in court and the time of his imprisonment see any bio of Mandela, for example the one on Wikipedia.
    Source for info on Namibian liberation war: myself. Been there during the mid-80s in a development aid project near Walfish Bay)
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2013
  20. Coloratura

    Coloratura Snuggle Princess Premium Member

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    Cite your sources, please.