NBA 2012-13 Discussion

Discussion in 'Sports and Fitness' started by SmoothieX, Oct 30, 2012.

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  1. gblews

    gblews Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    :wtf: This NEVER happened.
    Nash wouldn't be wasted running the Tri. He is a smart guy, a great shooter and passer, and can get into the lane -- all skills that help any offense. The Triangle (as with the Princeton) simply would not require the ball to be in his hands as much as a pick and roll offense would. And where did you get the notion that Karl had trouble with the Tri? He played great in the offense. Perhaps you're thinking of Gary Peyton.

    Well, anything might happen but keep in mind, Dwight plays center which is the easiet of all the positions in the Triangle to learn
    If PJ comes on board, it will be the second time he has taken the reins in mid-season although the last time, he had more guys who were familiar with the offense. I think the team wouldn't run as much from Triangle sets and would rely more on some pick and roll.

    We'll surely miss Tex, though I think more for his straight forward opinions on the game and how it's played more than for teaching the offense. They can have Kurt Rambis and Jimmy Cleamons handle that.
    The team stated today that the they are about 95% certain Phil will be the coach so that sounds like they have pretty much accepted whatever Phil's "dealbreakers" may be. Now, whether or not he accept's theirs is the question. It certainly isn't 100% that he will.
    There are 77 or so games left in the season. That is plenty of time. This is a team full of veterans, not guys who are new to the league.
    The team has stated that they are continuing the interview process in the event that Jackson does not take the job. From what I have been reading, although no formal offer has been made, the team has made it clear to PJ that he is their guy if things can be worked out to their mutual satisfaction.
     
  2. Timby

    Timby LIKE LIGHTNIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIING Administrator

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    During Jackson's first season with the Lakers, Bryant got incredibly frustrated with the triangle's focus on the center (and the close relationship that O'Neal developed with Jackson), and he had several episodes of lashing out over what he felt to be a reduced role. Obviously, they've mended their fences, but the triangle is not a simple offense.

    The triangle offense relies on wing players to do the bulk of the ball handling beyond half-court. Nash is not a good fit in that offense.

    Howard's a bi-polar headcase, though. It's hard to believe that picking up a new offense in the middle of a season would be terribly easy for him.

    Huh? Jackson returned to the Lakers in June 2005, well after their season was done; Frank Hamblen took over the team after Rudy T resigned out of nowhere.

    The team made no such statement; it came from an unnamed source (which is almost certainly Jackson's agent, trying to get leverage over the organization after the fanbase has been screaming for him to return).

    Being a veteran doesn't mean you pick things up that much more quickly. A team doesn't suddenly and magically pick up a new playing system out of the blue after having worked in a different system throughout training camp and the like.

    Just as the leaks about the job being Jackson's if he wants it are almost assuredly coming from his agent as a leverage thing, I guarantee you that the interview with Dunleavy is a leverage move on the Lakers' part. They're telling Jackson that they're more than willing to go with another candidate if he decides to throw a tantrum about not wanting to travel.
     
  3. gblews

    gblews Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Where do you get this stuff? Kobe became frustrated with the player and person Shaq was and that had little to do with the Triangle. Shaq was the no. 1 offensive option and that also had nothing to do with the Tri. Kobe never "lashed out because of a reduced role". Since Kobe came into the league Shaq was the no. 1 option on the Lakers. Why would Kobe's role be decreased? In fact, Kobe's role increased over the years as he developed. You may be basing your belief that Phil and Shaq were close on the fact that Phil felt Shaq should be the no. 1 option. But Kobe, "frustrated" because of the relationship...no. And none of this happened in PJ's first year with the team as you state.

    BTW, the offense has no particular "focus" on the center position beyond the fact that the offense is initiated through that position. When Phil came back and coached the team after Shaq left, the Lakers ran the tri more like more like the Bulls did.
    And so you think that because Nash plays point guard, he is incapable of playing on the wing? With Nash's ball handling and shooting skills, there is no reason he can't play on the wing although that won't likely be his designated role. The fact that the tri doesn't require a traditional "point guard", teams who run it can opt for a bigger (and sometimes less skilled) player alongside a 2-guard type.
    I don't care how big a head case he may be, the offense requires smarts not mental stability (MWP notwithstanding), and Dwight plays the easiest position to learn in the offense.
    Okay.
    True, but you were quoting Chris Broussard at ESPN and that guy is wrong way more often than he is right. I'll take the LA Times unnamed sources over Broussard any day when it comes to the Lakers.
    Yeah...it does, especially when there are guys on the team who have run the offense before.

    I'll bet Nash knows the offense pretty well himself after having played against it for so many games. Besides that, the Lakers haven't been the only team he (and likely other guys) have seen play the tri in the west. San Antonio, and Minnesota have both run plays from triangle sets.
    Neither you nor I can confirm who the sources of the leaks are, but it is still a negotiation and both sides have things they want. One of the other things I've read is that PJ wants more say in basketball decisions -- now that could be way more of a sticking point than travel, if true.

    I think they will work it out and the team will pick up the offense in time to be a significant factor in the playoffs and that is all that really matters.
     
  4. Neroon

    Neroon Mod of Balance Moderator

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    So.... the Lakers hire Mike D'Antoni instead of Phil Jackson? From what I had been reading, Jackson was ready to sign with them.
     
  5. Alidar Jarok

    Alidar Jarok Everything in moderation but moderation Moderator

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    I'm getting the impression he wanted to sign with them, but also wanted to play hardball and get certain conditions the Lakers didn't want to deal with, so they went with someone else.
     
  6. SmoothieX

    SmoothieX Vice Admiral Admiral

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    He probably figured the Lakers were desperate enough to agree to everything. No one demand was all that big, but he was asking for a lot of stuff - control over personnel, a salary well above the going rate, reduced travel, and a handpicked successor. Plus if you go by what the analysts say, the triangle offense is a bad match for Nash and Howard.

    Nash played for D'antoni. Kobe and Howard played for him on Team USA. So they are familiar with his style.
     
  7. Borgminister

    Borgminister Admiral Moderator

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    Defense! Defense!
     
  8. Timby

    Timby LIKE LIGHTNIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIING Administrator

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    AMAZING.
     
  9. Neroon

    Neroon Mod of Balance Moderator

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    An interesting littl ebit more infor on D'Antoni's hiring. Link.

    Apparently, D'Antoni and Kobe have a good relationship, which already makes this an upgrade over hiring Brown.
     
  10. gblews

    gblews Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The level of confusion is high even for the Lakers. As of Sunday, from reliable reports, it sounded like the job was Phil's to accept or decline -- but there were also reports that no offer had been made. How does one accept an offer that has not been made? Did the Lakers give Phil the "impression" the job was his, then before he could accept (it was supposed to be Monday), offer the job to D'Antoni? I would hate to think the Lakers would be that unprofessional.

    I really don't know what part of the roster Mitch and the Buss's are seeing as compatible with D'Antoni's run and gun style, shoot every 7 seconds or whatever the hell it is. We have two slashers. The Lakers, so far, have also not shown a great ability to hit from beyond the arc, so haow is this a D'Antoni team?

    The team is set up with a two season (maybe three), window and you bring in a coach after the season starts, who has never coached in the Finals much less won a championship. I don't care what PJ's demands were, we are talking about a 6th ring for Kobe in the next 2-3 years.

    This is on Jimmy Buss for hiring Mike Brown and his damn DvDs. Jimmy "handpicked" Tomjanovich and Brown, two of the worst coaching hires in team history and now he thinks he has some cred with D'Antoni? This truly sucks.
     
  11. Neroon

    Neroon Mod of Balance Moderator

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    Maybe they're banking on the Nash=D'Antoni connection from their Phoenix days
     
  12. gblews

    gblews Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That is what is being banked on -- only that connection resulted in no championships. True enough the Phoenix teams didn't have Kobe, Dwight, Pau, or and organization that has championship experience, but D'Antoni's no D (loser) approach will likely still be in effect. Supposedly he is bringing two of his former "no D" ass assistants with him for good measure.

    I know D'Antoni is an upgrade over Mike Brown but it doesn't feel like we went from Brown to D'Antoni -- it feels like we went from Brown to Phil Jackson to Mike D'Antoni. That's a bad feeling. :brickwall:
     
  13. 1001001

    1001001 I Like the Beats and Shouting Moderator

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    Interesting take on the Jackson situation:

    http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--lakers-resist-phil-jackson-s-power-grab-11051709.html

    Jackson wanted to humiliate Lakers vice president Jim Buss far more than he wanted to coach the team. He wanted significant allowances on travel, coaching duties and an ability to veto player personnel moves that didn't fit his vision. With an unprecedented 11 coaching championships, Jackson had every right to make unprecedented demands. He doesn't have the right to be surprised when the Lakers rejected them and hired a pliable, cheaper coach in Mike D'Antoni
     
  14. Timby

    Timby LIKE LIGHTNIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIING Administrator

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    That was a pretty interestingly timed hit piece.

    In any event, it's rather clear that Jackson overreached, and his agent is doing a pretty terrible job of spin control in the aftermath. I'd say the most successful coach of all time can make those kind of demands, but I understand why the Lakers might not have been eager to sign away all decision-making and then possibly end up with Kurt fuckin' Rambis as head coach in a year.

    D'Antoni will be an interesting fit. I think a lot of the complaints about defense stem from him having a team where Steve Nash and Amare Stoudemire were the two major focal points. His defense was pretty good when he had Tyson Chandler, and Dwight Howard is a souped-up version of that. That being said, though, there are some knocks on him; the fact that he can't customize his system to his personnel is problem number one. Problem number two is that he's incredibly bad at in-game adjustments. Problem number three is he's a distraction on the sidelines because he's completely unprofessional. So it'll be interesting to see how he deals with the LA media.

    I mean, I understand the desire for Jackson, but I thought he seemed pretty much done in his last year, and his demands were patently ridiculous (if true). Fans would have been driven nuts seeing Nash wasted in the triangle, and I don't think Howard would learn it in time to save the season.
     
  15. Danny99

    Danny99 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I had also heard that Jackson wanted part-ownership in the team. He knew he had them by the balls and tried to score a massive home run.
     
  16. gblews

    gblews Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Woj is the only one of the ESPN guys whose opinion and reporting I respect with regard to the NBA. But I think his belief that Phil was in a pissing match with Jimmy Buss is way off base. Phil is 67 years old and I just don't believe that at this point in his life, he needs to prove who has the largest trouser snake in the room -- especially if it is just Jimmy Buss in that room with him. BTW, now Jim I can see maybe needing to win such a battle.

    As has been pointed out, considering who Phil is and what he has done for this organization, an ownership stake was certainly not an unreasonable request. Magic was sold a stake in the team at a reduced amount because ODB just loves him. But with his 5 championships and 7 Finals appearances in the 00's, Phil has increased the value of the franchie tremendously. Pat Riley hadn't done anything close to this (still hasn't) and got an ownersip stake in the Heat.

    But after a night to sleep on it, I can see why the Lakers made this move. I still think it was a huge mistake in the short term, and that's all that really matters right now, and an iffy proposition for the long term. The Lakers see D'Antoni (and his more modern than Phil's, offense), Howard, and (for a while) Nash, as the team's future. That means they are willing to give up some of the sureness of a present with Phil, Kobe, Pau, Nash, and Howard, for that future.

    Huge, huge gamble with a coach who has NEVER been to the Finals, especially with LeBron attempting to form a dynasty in the east. If D'Antoni does manage to get this team to the Finals, he is liable to be pretty satisfied, ecstatic even, but he may not be aware that Laker fans are so "over" that -- we want the ring or it means nothing.
     
  17. SmoothieX

    SmoothieX Vice Admiral Admiral

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    [​IMG]
     
  18. gblews

    gblews Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ODB = "Old Doc Buss" -- a nickname given to him by a former sports talk host in L.A., with apologies to the original "Bastard", I'm sure.
     
  19. poundpuppy29

    poundpuppy29 Commander Red Shirt

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    I hope the Celtics are good this year and I hope the Lakers do not win a championship
     
  20. Borgminister

    Borgminister Admiral Moderator

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    Between the two, I'd say the Lakers have the better shot. I wouldn't write off a Miami repeat.
     
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