My thoughts on DS9

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by villain, Nov 7, 2013.

  1. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    If the colonists really wanted to set themselves up as their own state they would have needed to stop committing terrorism and using pirated resources. As it was I can't blame the Feds or the Cardassians for not giving them whatever respect they felt they were entitled to. In very broad strikes, it would be like recognizing Al Qaeda as a sovereign nation after the events of 9/11.

    Honestly, the Maquis must have had the worst Public Relations ever.
     
  2. borgboy

    borgboy Commodore Commodore

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    I can see where DS9 already had the Bajorans as victims of the Cardassians, and there was some storytelling overlap between the Maquis and the Bajorans.
     
  3. Lindley

    Lindley Moderator with a Soul Moderator

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    I wonder why there were never more Kira vs/helping Maquis stories. It seems like that would be a natural fit....
     
  4. borgboy

    borgboy Commodore Commodore

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    I agree, Kira and the Marquis would be a good fit. Maybe they didn't do it because TNG had done that already with Ro?
    Could be a good plot for a flashback novel though.
     
  5. dub

    dub Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    My guess is they wanted DS9 to be its own show and they didn't want to be forced into a storyline, so they made it about Eddington and they washed their hands of the Maquis so they could get back to the big Dominion plot. But I agree with all of those ideas above. I think that would have been cool. I like Bry's idea.
     
  6. HaventGotALife

    HaventGotALife Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Which is actually an interesting element. We could've had dissidents of the Bajorans joining the Maquis to train them and put the Federation and Bajoran governments at odds. This would mirror how the French trained the American Colonists on how to fight the British. A wrinkle that shows the lack of unity among the Bajoran government and puts their membership in the Federation in peril. It would tie "the Circle" story line with the "Maquis" story line.

    There was a lot of potential. That's what makes it so frustrating. Instead, the Maquis doesn't do anything by the time Eddington comes around that wasn't done in TNG's Journey's End. It's a starting point. "We want to go home!" Maybe they could've showed some former Maquis colonies and how the Maquis treated those that left their organization. They could've had a terrorist attack that looks like the Federation was involved in aiding the Maquis that puts the Cardassian peace in jeopardy. They could've had the Maquis change their mission, allying with the Federation, and they teach the Federation how to fight a terrorist battle.

    I'm doing this off the top of my head. I've thought about it no more than 10 minutes. But it just seems to me that what they did wasn't interesting enough to devote so much time to it.
     
  7. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    My thoughts on Deep Space Nine are as follows:

    The show started out kind of different and interesting. But then after a couple seasons, they started to lose confidence in DS9 and started doing everything it could to make it more like TNG. For example, bringing in Worf and thusly, the entire Klingon story ark from TNG. Sisko now had to be made a Captain and given his own little starship, so that the base is just a platform, more or less for the Defiant and its exploits. Bringing back all of these TNG elements and making DS9 fall more in line with traditional STAR TREK really hurt its claims to being a "unique" series.
     
  8. HaventGotALife

    HaventGotALife Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think that is a very superficial analysis. I don't mean to insult you, I am just saying that because Worf is on the program doesn't mean that every Klingon storyline was meant as a ripoff of TNG. Just because they had a ship, doesn't mean that they lacked an original premise. I mean, all Star Trek series had a ship, except DS9 for the first two seasons.

    DS9 had a warship. It was built to defeat the Borg and used to defeat the Dominion. It's showing the change in mentality among Starfleet, and allowing DS9 to have more weapons than it had. They had good and original ideas with that ship.

    In a show about oppression, the Klingons give the Cardassians a reason for joining the Dominion. We knew they were the enemies and most shows wouldn't bother to do more than just have them join. If you look at the oppression story lines, it fits perfectly. Remember Robert Kennedy's words: "Violence breeds violence, oppression breeds retaliation." Dukat makes them STRONG again! They were a BEATEN people.

    They put the Federation in the position of being conquered and become what the Bajorans were under the Cardassians--oppressed. It drives home the story lines about oppression.
     
  9. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    HaventGotALife, I don't feel insulted. Nor was I trying to insult. I own some of DS9 - not a lot - and it's not usual for it to be on, when I just need some background noise, whilst I'm painting, cooking, or cleaning. I would never discourage anyone from watching this series. But I stand by my statements. These technicalities you pointed out about the specifications of the Defiant, or the opression of the Klingons, are merely splitting hairs. I know that you're trying to point out how mining so heavily from TNG only added to the ... to the texture ... the flavour of the series. But I enjoyed DS9 most for its original elements. Even Ezri Dax, whom I never found to be all that attractive or interesting, but my unfamiliarity with her species and her specifically helped the Seventh Season, in Jadzia's absence ...
     
  10. HaventGotALife

    HaventGotALife Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    My point is not to "split hairs." It is to show that even when using familiar elements (Worf, Miles O'Brien, having a ship, the 24th century version of Klingons), the show was able to maintain its themes and develop its characters.

    I make this distinction because I don't believe the UPN shows--Enterprise and Voyager--did a very good job doing anything that was original. The Borg Queen didn't have layers added to her. She was the same in Voyager as she was in First Contact. The same thing with the Maquis. The creative juices were not flowing through those shows.

    I don't know about you but any show that is a spinoff will have familiar characters and situations. But a good spinoff is one that tells an original story or does something unique with the "universe." For instance, Frasier was a successful spinoff from Cheers. While Frasier remained unchanged and was the center of the show, the characters around him became funny and endearing as any character on Cheers. That allowed them to tell interesting stories and situations without having to re-tread on Cheers. It wasn't set in a bar in Boston, for instance. It was a family and workplace drama of a different sort (a radio station). And as they brought characters from Cheers onto the show, the characters had a reason for being there. It furthered the show beyond just seeing them and expecting them to be the same characters. It showed how Frasier had changed in some respects from his time on Cheers.

    Deep Space Nine is a good spinoff because it adds to the texture of the known 24th century universe. Sure, the Cardassians, Bajorans, and Trills had been in TNG. But they changed drastically from TNG to DS9. Uniforms, make-up, how they fit together in the universe, all of that changed. For instance, "Dr. Beverly" saw a bumpy-faced man who said that he was merely "a host," that "Edan" was the slug. In DS9, it's a symbiotic relationship between two individuals--the host and the symbiot.

    I think the show didn't "sell out" as it were when it got a ship. We never had a prolonged threat. We had enemies, but it was essentially a peaceful time. This show, DS9, explored a prolonged threat to the entire Alpha Quadrant. How different species would react, how we can destroy ourselves, and how we will deal with an existential threat. Voyager didn't have anything that focused or concise.

    Stand by it if you must, but I feel that DS9 is, indeed, an original spinoff. They weren't telling TNG stories on that show. Sisko wasn't a clone of Picard. As a matter of fact, it's more in the first season that they encounter "alien of the week" stories that mirror TNG. It's not until the middle of the second season that the show really takes off with its own brand of storytelling.
     
  11. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think this is the first time I've ever seen it said that DS9 became -more- like TNG over time.
     
  12. dub

    dub Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That's interesting. To me, early DS9 felt more TNG with its more episodic format, while later seasons became more serialized (or had more layers of continuing arcs) and lots of guest stars who came back often and had depth and in some cases arcs of their own which was what made it more unique to me.
     
  13. GalaxyX

    GalaxyX Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    TNG gets a lot of flak simply because it was done in episodic format.

    I think at the time, that format was fine. Could TNG have benefitted from an ongoing arc? Definitely! We might have missed out on some stellar episodes though because of it.

    Most of DS9 once the war kicks in is war war war, and personally I don't even think that well done (I am rewatching it a second time right now, and I am enjoying it more than the first time, so I may change my mind on a few things).

    I just finished S2 of DS9, and while it's been decent so far, no way does it compare to TNG's later seasons. We'll see how S3 holds out.
     
  14. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I don't think most people would say that the early seasons of DS9 are on par with the later seasons of TNG. Much like TNG, DS9 took a couple of seasons to find its footing.
     
  15. 4Cardassia

    4Cardassia Ensign Newbie

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    Actually, I have found that one of the primary sources of complaint directed toward Deep Space Nine's last two seasons is there being too many episodes that don't tie into the overall war arc. Episodes like "His Way," "Take Me Out to the Holosuite," and "Badda-Bing, Badda-Bang" are often derided for their seeming inconsequence and lack of relevancy to the overall plot. I, of course, am in in complete disagreement with these criticisms though :).

    So it can't be said that DS9's sole focus toward the end was the Dominion War. In fact, by that point, the show had built up a variety of other interweaving storylines such as those involving the Prophets, Ferengi, and countless individuals characters that only occasionally intersected with the War.

    Count me in as someone who vastly prefers DS9’s early seasons to the final years of TNG. At least in my view, Deep Space Nine had already surpassed the average quality of its illustrious predecessor half way through its second year—especially when compared with TNG’s seventh season, with which it ran concurrently.

    The seventh season of The Next Generation embodied what that series had become in its later years: a lazy, pompous, unambitious shadow of its former self. Though TNG season 7 had a handful of great episodes such as “Parallels,” “Lower Decks,” “All Good Things…”, they were lost in a vast sea of mediocrity. (In stark contrast, Deep Space Nine’s seventh season was busy introducing new characters and elements, telling daring new stories, and shaking up the status quo.)

    Meanwhile, as The Next Generation drifted further into complacency, Deep Space Nine was blooming into the vibrant, complex tapestry it would become for the remainder of its run. After kicking off with a risky series of episodes in the form of the Circle Trilogy, DS9 season two made a concerted effort to establish its own identity by further incorporating its colorful array of recurring characters and adding to the intricacies of its primary alien cultures and the changing scene of interstellar politics. Finally, the season culminated in the introduction of the Dominion, the Alpha Quadrant’s most multi-faceted threat.

    In the end, it’s all a matter of personal preference. However, I do feel that TNG’s sixth and seventh seasons are afforded an excessive amount of leniency compared to their contemporary DS9 seasons.
     
  16. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    By "later seasons" of TNG I meant 4-5, as opposed to 1-2.
     
  17. 4Cardassia

    4Cardassia Ensign Newbie

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    That makes sense. Sorry that I misunderstood you :).
    I agree that TNG reached its peak during the middle seasons. I actually consider TNG season 3 to be the most consistent season —aesthetically and dramatically— out of the entire Star Trek franchise.
     
  18. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Don't get me wrong, I'm not writing off DS9 as a subpar series. I just felt that the franchise fell back on its comfort zone when the ideas this particular series started out with weren't commercial enough.

    Too much TNG carried over to DS9, I felt. They should've braved a whole new production crew and Creative Team.

    I love Herman Zimmerman's take on the Enterprise-D, it's bridge and hallways. Hated the engine room with a heart-felt passion and just about everything else Herman ever did. "Z" is a lovable guy, a sweet soul. But I hate his design sense, for the most part, which is all up in DS9, everywhere you look at, on and in the station.
     
  19. GalaxyX

    GalaxyX Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Heresy!!! :klingon:

    I don't think there's anything I don't love about TNG's interior designs. The engine room was the most kick ass room of all though IMO.

    DS9's design hasn't really grown on me at all. I think the station outside is this hideous spider looking thing, and inside looks like some neon Tokyo/Blade Runner inspired sets. I let it slide because it's supposed to be "alien" (Cardassian design)
     
  20. MakeshiftPython

    MakeshiftPython Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Ladies love Riker's beard.
    I find DS9's set the more intriguing and dynamic than TNG's Winnebago beige look.