My thoughts on DS9

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by villain, Nov 7, 2013.

  1. villain

    villain Cadet Newbie

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    Hi everyone, this is my first post on here. Apologies for the length but I wanted to make some observations. I had previously watched DS9 around 10 years ago, and thought it was time to watch it again! I wanted to post on here my thoughts of the series and the characters.

    Let's start with the characters:

    Ben Sisko - I have read people's views on his 'over-acting', but I liked him and the style that he used. He was authoritive, demanded respect, but also had a fun side. I hated Cassidy Yates though, and thought that was a complete waste of time.

    Kira - I hated pretty much every story with her and the Bajorans. I liked it best how Dukat summed them up, but cannot remember the exact phrase. I repeatedly wanted her to die whenever she was in a dangerous situation.

    Bashir - started out unlikable and arrogant, however in the later seasons he became more likable and I enjoyed his role in the 2nd half of the show.

    Jadzia Dax - I really liked her. She had a great personality, a good connection with Sisko, and was full of surprises (fighting with Klingons, gambling with Ferengi!)

    Esri Dax - When Jadzia died I would not have had another Dax. I saw no point introducing a new character for the last series and especially then having episodes dedicated to her. I was not impressed with Esri Dax.

    Worf - I loved Worf (as much as a human male can platonically love a Klingon warrior). The Dominion war gave us a great chance to see Worf's troubled prerogatives. I thought he added great value to the whole show when he joined. Some of his one liners and facial expressions made me crack up and I think he really grew from his character on TNG. Anyone notice he stopped drinking prune juice and moved on to blood wine?

    Jake Sisko - fairly inoffensive, and quite dull. One great episode (when he was an old man).

    Miles O'Brien - a legend. Colm Meaney is a great actor and really gave O'Brien a fantastic depth. Also loved the episode (where Molly was missing in time) when he loudly exclaimed 'Oh B***ocks!' I really disliked Keiko though, even though visually it was clear O'Brien was really punching above his weight....

    Quark - loved Quark and all the Ferengi storylines and characters, including the Grand Negus and Brunt. I liked how his and Odo's relationship grew throughout. He also developed more morality as the show grew, but still retained the naughtiness of the early seasons.

    Odo - I really disliked him at first but he really grew on me. The one episode where he did not disable the security system and Rom was captured threw me a little. I thought this was well out of character for him (even if he had been linking at the time). I disliked his relationship with Kira, but I liked his relationship with Quark.

    Dukat - I really liked Dukat, he was interesting and it gave the story a good link back to when the Cardassians ran Terok Nor. He also had some great descriptions of the Bajorans (until near the end when he went quite mad).

    Garek - wonderful character. I found his one-liners fantastic. He really developed throughout the programme too. One of my favourite characters alongside O'Brien.

    Nog - I liked the way he developed into a Star Fleet officer. I didn't like the incessant whinging of the earlier episodes.

    Rom - a little mouse with a big heart. Sometimes he showed enormous bravery. He was also massively punching above his weight with Leeta.

    Weyoun - For a bad guy, I liked him! He had some good put-downs to Dukat and Damar, and was so wonderfully grovelling to the founders. Great actor too.

    Martok - he was great. A man of honour and bravery. Very fond of the blood wine.


    Overall I loved the show. It had a bit of a slow start, but once the Dominion was on board (it was interesting re-watching it to see the smaller mentions of the Dominion) it really kicked on. I really disliked the Bajorans (and can see the irony since it was them and their wormhole that enabled the whole show to exist), I just found them whiny and dull.

    There were lots of favourite episodes. One of my favourites was the one where Ben Sisko is a writer and loads of the other characters are in the episode whilst out of their usual makeup. I found it great trying to work out who was who! There were also some epic battles which I enjoyed, and of course the time travel episodes too!

    I really wish a film had been made of the show. It probably ranks as my favourite star trek, simply down to the series storylines that go through multiple episodes. I managed to rewatch it all in less than a month, just through needing to see what happened next! The best thing was since it had been 10 years since I had previously watched it, a lot of it had been completely forgotten!
     
  2. dub

    dub Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Welcome to the board! Enjoyed reading your thoughts. Glad you love the show! Although it's always hard for me to fathom someone loving DS9 and detesting Kira since she's such a huge part of the series. But...I suppose it's hard for me to understand also because I love her so much! ;)

    I'm curious what your thoughts are on Kai Winn since she was a bit unusual by Bajoran standards?

    Hope you stick around and chime in on other threads and in other subforums! Welcome! :techman:
     
  3. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I still think DS9 missed an opportunity by not making Ezri a man instead, but bygones. Interesting opinions overall, thanks for sharing them. Predictably I agree in some areas, disagree in others. :)
     
  4. villain

    villain Cadet Newbie

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    Thanks for the welcome :)

    I am hoping to stick around and have recently been rewatching Voyager, so expect me to pop up on that sub forum too! I like all the different Star Trek series and films as well.

    Kai Winn - I disliked her too. I didn't like her devious nature which she explained away as 'the will of the prophets'. I found it quite fitting how she ended up with Dukat in the end. It was what she deserved...

    Ezri - I agree. If they were going to bring Dax back, then a change would have been much better, instead of Esri (a shadow of the Dax that had been before). A male Dax would have at least allowed a bit more expansion of the Dax character (and of course allow some funny interactions with Worf!).
     
  5. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    An interesting sum up of the series and characters (shame you didn't take to Kira, she's my favourite character of all Trek, but that's me).

    Have to agree with the idea or Ezri being a man, it would have made those awkward moments with Worf even more so, whilst giving Quark and Bashir some mixed up feelings too. What they did with her in S7 I liked. I think they got a good balance of introducing a new Dax, whilst still continuing to develop all the other characters (VOY should've taken notice).
     
  6. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    If Dax had returned as a male, then the only woman on the main cast would've been Kira. It was a good ensemble cast, but that it needed more female characters.

    At any rate, I can't fathom the dislike of Kira either. What was offensive or off-putting about her?
     
  7. villain

    villain Cadet Newbie

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    Perhaps I was a little harsh on Kira, I do recall by the end of the 7th series I was happy to tolerate her, rather than hate her. I must have thawed! To be fair though, considering the location and the context, her role was essential to be filled by a Bajoran.

    I so think that DS9 had more of my favourite characters in it than any other Star Trek. It had some fringe characters that popped up throughout that really added a lot of value to the programme (Garak, Brunt, Dukat, etc), as well as a relatively strong main cast.
     
  8. villain

    villain Cadet Newbie

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    I didn't like her personality and I didn't like some of the pretty dull episodes which centered around her (I recall one in particular where she was trying to get some Bajorans to leave their homes which was particularly bad). I also found the Bajoran's to be one of the dullest ever people to be portrayed on Star Trek, so whenever she doing 'Bajoran' things, it bored me.

    In retrospect I agree about the lack of female characters if Dax came back male. I would have just preferred a better female Dax to have been portrayed.
     
  9. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Kira was more than enough woman for DS9 S7 :lol:
     
  10. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    From the standpoint of what creates more interesting writing, I think Ezri as a male is the more interesting choice, but I concede that having one woman in the regular cast would have been a bit awkward. It's a shame they didn't have other female regulars as a way of mooting that point.
     
  11. GalaxyX

    GalaxyX Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    i might as well chip in since I'm viewing the show for the second time ever (first time was maybe 12 years ago? I hated it back them, liking it now though)

    To me, Avery Brooks has a very rash style of acting, where you think he is constantly angry about something, even when he's smiling. If you guys have seen Lost, he reminds me of that guy Eko, admittedly Sisko wasn't as bad.

    From my first viewing of Cassidy, it seems to be she was very boring, and I wasn't sure what Sisko saw in her, but I don't remember much and will wait to see her again to comment.

    I hated her the first time around. This time i'm kind of more neutral to her. I hate the way she is written (angry butch female with chip on her shoulder), and Nana Visitor gives the character absolutely no layers of subtlety that I can remember.

    She has mellowed out form Season 1 though.

    I'm not sure why Bashir is my favorite character (Quark is running for that spot now though) because there's things I dislike about him. I'm annoyed at how he sees himself as a ladies man. I sometimes want to tell him "dude, there's a thing called a gym, and there's weights there. Go lift some and put some muscle on that skeletal frame for fuck's sakes!"

    I think one of the reasons I like him though is because for all his faults, he comes across as a really caring guy. I think for most doctors caring about people is a given, so I'm not surprised. So I guess I like him because he's the most likeable human guy.

    I hate hate hate her character!! I couldn't put my finger as to why until now. I want to say she is written as a Mary Sue, although I'm not sure the term applies in this case. However, to expand on that, she is supposed to come across as a person who's had 8 lifetimes of experience under her belt. Guinan from TNG played up this same concept much better than Terry Farwell ever could. The actress just doesn't have the chops to do the character in a nuanced way, so she comes across simply as being smug, like she's arrogant that she's so smart.

    I still feel pairing her with Worf was the writers catering to the fantasy that an ugly guy can end up with a hot woman (is that a TV Trope?).

    DS9 was particularly a culprit for showing that human looking females were the hottest in the Galaxy (Human and Bajoran women in particular were usually hot females, sought after by ugly males, like Ferengi)

    What did people used to call her? A cream filled goodness (something along those lines). I didn't like the character. At the time I didn't know why. Now I do. I hate short hair in women, particularly if they have rounder faces!

    Worf was always a weird character to me, and not really one of my favourites.

    I don't think he was meant as much else. If you don't expect much, his appearances don't bother you much.

    Colm Meaney (sp?) was pretty fit at the beginning of TNG. He got pudgy as the series went along. Keiko is pretty but she's not a knock out, and I think she's a good match for O'brien.

    I never hated Quark, but this second viewing I'm starting to like him more and more. Very entertaining character.

    I had a superficial reason for hating Quark and Rom originally. I hated those names given to Ferengi. To me, a quark is a subatomic particle, and ROM is read only memory, a computer term.

    In my older age I find I can ignore that superficiality and enjoy the characters for what they are.

    I wanted to like Odo a lot. The way he was written though, his shape shifting was mostly a gimmick. He was as weak and powerless as a solid. First time viewing I got the impression that he was siding with his people, but a last minute infatuation with Kira had him side with the Alpha Quadrant and tip the scales in the Federation's favour.

    So it seems that the Federation won strictly because Odo wanted to bone Kira. Maybe I'll be proven wrong in my second viewing.

    I hated al Cardassians (with minor exceptions). But that was the point wasn't it?

    So far he's been nothing more than an annoying troll who deserves to get a serious beating. Maybe I'll change my mind?

    He's as forgettable as Jake is IMO.

    Again, this is that bone from the writers showing us "pimply faced overweight nerds" that we too, could have a hot woman like Leeta. If Rom can do it, surely we could? :rolleyes:

    I hated the character, but the actor is excellent! He takes a character I hate and makes him watchable. I did enjoy him far more as Shran on Enterprise.

    I think he was a perfect example of what Klingon honour should be about. Most of the time "honour" was written to be about a bunch of Klingons acting like barbarians for the lulz.
     
  12. dub

    dub Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Ezri grew on me the second time around. Having the new Dax as a male is an interesting idea, but I'm glad they didn't do it. Too much testosterone among the cast already.
     
  13. MikeS

    MikeS Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    What was the episode where Nog stood up to him and he showed him respect for that? That typifies the character of Martok to me as showing true honour. Klingons that beat up Ferengi are nothing but bullies!

    I can certainly empathise with this viewpoint of Kira. I too found her one-dimensional and angry at everything just for the sake of being angry during the first couple of episodes. However, I feel she evolved into one of the best and deepest characters.
     
  14. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    They had to give the characters room to grow - the producers planned on it. Kira was angry all the time, at first. But if she had been a well-balanced person at the beginning of the season, then where would her character growth come from?
     
  15. HaventGotALife

    HaventGotALife Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I haven't posted my thoughts on the series in awhile, so I thought I would add them to your thread.

    I think the fact we are still in here talking about the show is telling of both the Trek universe and DS9 as an individual series. I think Berman, Behr, and Piller put the universe that they created in TNG to the test. If TOS was morality plays, so was DS9 and that made it uniquely Trek. The series that followed after DS9 do not inspire me.

    I think of DS9 as a 177-hour story about Oppression. I think the show did a good job at showing what it was like to have to make peace with your enemy. We made peace with Germany and Russia. It happens, and that is what the Cardassian/Bajoran relationship was to me. I think it was of its day to make the Cardassians so obviously the bad guys. There's no ambiguity from the time that Dukat came on the station to welcome Sisko to the neighborhood. They correct some of that by making Dukat more sympathetic until the Cardassians join the Dominion.

    I think the weakest part of the series was the Maquis. I have wondered if they intended to split the Federation in half or if they were trying to find a way to fight another war with the Cardassians--the Cardassians are honestly arming the other side and the Federation has no choice but to try and stop them, that sort of thing. It seems to just sit there. They repeat themselves over and over again. I understand that the colonists want to go home, but it doesn't peel the layers like it does with the Dominion.

    Anyway, the Dominion is both the oppressed and the oppressor. The Federation finally faces the situation that the Bajorans faced before the series began. Will they be oppressed as well? Or, perhaps worse, will we destroy ourselves because of the existential threat?

    DS9 remains the best show at really picking apart a problem. The problems will be there next week, too.
     
  16. dub

    dub Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That's an interesting way of putting it. I would say they took the existing universe and showed us a tucked away, darker piece of that universe we hadn't seen before. And instead of solving the problem in one episode and warping away, our characters lived there. I think it helped real tension to fester there, which really gave the show a texture and flavor that was unique to the series.

    Yes. They even found ways to get this theme into smaller aspects of the show as well, like Benny Russell, and even in light-hearted ways with women's rights on Fereginar.

    It was an interesting sidebar for me. I thought it really brought out some dark shades of Sisko's character, especially his rivalry with Eddington. But I agree that the Maquis as a presence with purpose was perhaps among the least developed.

    Excellent post. Thanks for sharing!
     
  17. HaventGotALife

    HaventGotALife Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Thank you! I'm glad you enjoyed it.

    I think it would've been interesting to show a dark side to the problem with the Maquis, not to Eddington and Sisko. Like the Federation has a policy to kill the Maquis on-site. Or the colonists have made an arms deal with the Romulans, something like that.
     
  18. Venator

    Venator Ensign Newbie

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    Agree pretty much with what OP said. However, Kira, how can you just say you hated her character? Hate doesn't even begin to describe it. Wanted her to die in EVERY episode. Not sure why some liked her. Sure she grew as a character but still, awful introduction of a character either way, way to over the top in my opinion.

    Oh well we all have different opinions I guess.
     
  19. borgboy

    borgboy Commodore Commodore

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    I like Kira quite a bit. She does get better as the show goes on. Yes, she's angry, but she has good reason to be. She grew up with her people as slaves, the most attractive women used sexually by their masters, her planet's resources stripped, etc. We also see Kira as compassionate and nurturing, with her as a surrogate for the O'Brien's, her close friendship with Ziyal, etc. She grows and even learns to care about some Cardassians, like the man who thought she was his daughter. I did think the romance with Odo was a misstep.
    I also thought that a male Dax would have been interesting, especially if he'd been gay as Trek still never really explored that directly. But I do get that the show needed a stronger female presence too. That's their fault for only having two female main characters in a pretty large cast though. They'd have needed to make it clear that the new Dax had always been gay and this wasn't a result of the symbiote.
    I can see where Jadzia and Ezri both didn't really have the gravitas to be convincing of having so many lives under their belts. I did like both of them a lot, and Ezri covered new ground with her identity crisis as she was initally uncomfortable being joined where Jadzia always embraced that.
     
  20. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    You can kinda tell the Maquis isn't a DS9 element. It was primarily set up in late-TNG and early-DS9 are a precursor to VOY, but after that series kicks off DS9 is left to deal with it in the Alpha Quadrant. They tried to work with it, but it really did lacklustre.

    I wish they'd had the colonists really take a stand and set themselves up as their own independent state. It could have had some interesting repercussions on the station, as well as when the Dominion arrive in the AQ--would they hold out on their own, ally with the Federation, ally with the Bajorans?