My name is.....SORAN!

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by Khan 2.0, Oct 1, 2013.

  1. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    TOS Khan was prepared to sacrifice his and Kirk's crew just to prove he was superior to Kirk.
    I got the impression in TOS that his crew was a bunch of arrogant supermen and superwomen like himself who were united under his rule that he respected but needed to dominate.

    Perhaps after his hardships on that planet he grew to 'love' his people in TWOK. Of course revenge was a higher priority than their lives.

    Maybe nuKhan grew to love his people or realised he was alone without them in nuTrek. Marcus had a year to play mindtricks on Khan.
     
  2. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    Till the end, I was holding out for Gary Mitchell to be the villain of STID. Through the power of digital editing we can have a glimpse of what could have been.

    [​IMG]

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    Last edited: Oct 3, 2013
  3. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    People who think that hairstyle on Alice Eve is coincidence are nuts.

    nuKhan was a completely different character. Like when he talks about his "savagery". Bull. Khan considered himself a superior being, and he was a leader, a despot, and Montalban's class conveyed that on screen, especially in Space Seed. There is no savagery in that.
     
  4. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    'Superior' is a notoriously fuzzy concept.
    It is quite believable that a conqueror/despot of half of Earth considers savagery to be a 'superior' trait; one quite consistent with having refined manners, being highly intelligent and a casanova, etc.
     
  5. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Montalban's Khan and his men demonstrated savagery on McGivers and Uhura 60s style.
    Actually I don't think it would be acceptable for men to slap around women on screen nowadays

    Cumberbatch demonstrated his savagery 21st century style by blowing up things and using guns and his fists

    I do think the idea of suffocating the crew was pretty stylish of PrimeKhan. Maybe a year under the control of Section 31 has made Khan lose his class.

    Yes and Alice Eves hairstyle was definitely a misdirect
     
  6. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    Scotty: There were no massacres under his rule.
    Spock: And very little freedom.
    McCoy: No wars until he was attacked.


    *After Khan takes over the ship*

    Khan: Nothing ever changes, except man. Your technical accomplishments? Improve a mechanical device and you may double productivity. But improve man and you gain a thousand fold. I am such a man. Join me. I'll treat you well. I need your training to operate a vessel this complex.

    I'm not seeing the savage part. Maybe Spock Prime saw it when he described Khan like this.

    Prime Spock: He will not hesitate to kill every last one of you.

    Only when he's pushed into a corner with no chance to get what he wants. Heck, even when he had the opportunity to destroy the Enterprise completely in The Wrath of Khan, he does something worse than hesitate. He gloats.

    Khan: I deprive your ship of power and when I swing around I mean to deprive you of your life. But I wanted you to know first who it was who had beaten you.

    And in a total savage like manner, is open to terms with Kirk in sparring his crew in exchange for Kirk and the Genesis information. Sure it might be a trick, but than again Khan could have easily killed the entire crew of the Reliant. But we can't have a Khan who could potentially be a good guy in this new take, can we? Let's throw in a heaping dose of retcon.

    Jesus Khan: Spock, give me my crew.
    NuSpock: What will you do when you get them?
    Jesus Khan: Continue the work we were doing before we were banished.
    NuSpock: Which as I understand it involves the mass genocide of any being you find to be less than superior.



    Khan wasn't Banished, he fled. He didn't want to kill everyone he deemed inferior, only to give them his idea of order. He wasn't condemned to space as war criminals, he and his followers followed him to seek out a new world and build an empire without the interference of humanity. Nobody on the high court gave two craps about Khan's character outside of the fact that he was the villain in the film that's been praised to be the best film of the series. To them, Khan being the villain meant he was an inherently evil person which I is, as Jarod said, is Bull.
     
  7. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Jeyl

    Khan tortured Carol Marcus's science team to obtain information; and then he killed them because he just felt like it.
    But wait - he was always ready with a little narcissistic speech or a Shakespeare quote when putting a brain eating bug in your head, etc - which makes all the difference in the world, of course. He was just misunderstood - no savagery to see here, folks; move on.

    Your examples only managed to show Khan could restrain himself when it was to his advantage - as would be expected from the conqueror of half of Earth. How many millions died for Khan's delusions of grandeur in those wars, Jeyl?

    BTW - You actually attribute humanistic reasons to Khan being forced to flee in order to escape the consequences of his rule at the hands of his ex-subjects/the people he failed to enslave? Really?:rofl:
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2013
  8. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I doubt they would have used an adaption of Where No Man Has Gone Before to star the NuTrek ongoing comic if they were planning on using Mitchell considering that the NuTrek novels that were cancelled seemed to touch on stuff that was in Into Darkness.

    Not to mention the fact that for "Harrison" to be Gary Mitchell would have required nerfing Mitchell considerably considering he had godlike powers.

    It also doesn't work for "Harrison" to be Soran either because he never had super human abilities near as I can tell.

    Also no offense but destroying the Enterprise-D doesn't make someone a threat since the writers made that so easy a kindergartner could do it.
     
  9. anh165

    anh165 Commander Red Shirt

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    You could fit in any villain you like in place of Khan, the same way you could fit in any crew in the Trek reboot, but anyone creative with some business acumen would see that using the most memorable and appealing of characters works best for modern day Trek.

    As usual, fan derived ideas should stay in the fan fic section where it can't do anyone any further harm.
     
  10. Franklin

    Franklin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'll admit I had a problem with this line by Spock. It is a very inaccurate statement of the background and motives of the character. According to what's said in "Space Seed", there were no massacres or wars under his tyranny. Of course, he was still a ruthless tyrant, imposing only the type of order he saw fit.

    Khan and his people were also not fleeing a death sentence (so far as we know from "Space Seed"), but I'll chalk that up to Marcus saying whatever he thought he needed to say to try to persuade Kirk to turn Khan over to him. As I remember it, they escaped (exiled themselves, basically) before being brought to any justice. Then again, maybe they were sentenced to death in absentia.

    The other interesting thing I noticed from re-reading the script of "Space Seed" is that there were originally been 85 cryo-tubes. Scotty told Kirk twelve units malfunctioned, leaving 72 others still alive. He said that after Khan had been revived, so the 72 left probably didn't count the thawed Khan, only the remaining operating tubes. Interesting how the universes operate. Those twelve poor slobs didn't stand a chance in either of them.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2013
  11. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Actually it isn't as easy as people seem to think as with the villains suggested as replacements are either to under powered to slaughter a platoon of klingons are to over powered for them not to just vaporize the klingons with a thought.
     
  12. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    That was Khan from "The Wrath of Khan" after he spent 15 years on a barren world where he was forced to watch 20 of his loyal followers and his own wife die a painful death. I'm not dismissing what he did in TWOK, only that if it wasn't for Ceti Alpha Six exploding, things would have been very different.

    First off, it was a quarter of Earth. Not half. And if millions died during the take over, why doesn't anyone in Space Seed mention it?

    SPOCK: In 1993, a group of these young supermen did seize power simultaneously in over forty nations.

    Simultaneously in over 40 nations. This sounds more like a quick and precise coup to take over these nations without resorting to an all out war. If there was any killing, it would be more along the lines of facing resistance from the nation's forces, not random acts of bloodshed. And if you don't think Khan didn't do things in a non-bloodshed kind of way, look at how he took over the Enterprise. No armed conflict, no bloodshed and no killing. Just knock them all out. And if Khan and his supermen were in fact responsible for millions of deaths, why do the crew have admiration for him? Keep in mind, they're referring to history written by those who defeated Khan.

    SPOCK: From 1992 through 1996, absolute ruler of more than a quarter of your world. From Asia through the Middle East.
    MCCOY: The last of the tyrants to be overthrown.
    SCOTT: I must confess, gentlemen. I've always held a sneaking admiration for this one.
    KIRK: He was the best of the tyrants and the most dangerous. They were supermen, in a sense. Stronger, braver, certainly more ambitious, more daring.
    SPOCK: Gentlemen, this romanticism about a ruthless dictator is
    KIRK: Mister Spock, we humans have a streak of barbarism in us. Appalling, but there, nevertheless.
    SCOTT: There were no massacres under his rule.
    SPOCK: And as little freedom.
    MCCOY: No wars until he was attacked.
    SPOCK: Gentlemen.
    KIRK: Mister Spock, you misunderstand us. We can be against him and admire him all at the same time.
    SPOCK: Illogical.
    KIRK: Totally.


    You think anyone there would be an open admirer of Hitler, a man who really did commit acts of genocide on whole cultures of people?

    Uh, slaves? I don't think slavery was ever part Khan's style.
     
  13. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Jeyl

    1. So - now the Khan from 'the wrath of Khan' was a different one from 'space seed' (as opposed to your previous post). Of course.
    2. As per 'Enterprise: borderland', the Eugenic wars costed 30 million victims (at least - perhaps 35, 37 million) and nearly plunged Earth into a new Dark Age. I guess the Khan from Enterprise was different from the one in 'space seed', as well, yes?
    3. If you want to be euphemistic, you may call Khan's 'little freedom' slaves 'subjects'.

    The scene from 'Space seed' with the characters salivating after Khan - because that's what you do when discussing a tyrant, apparently - is more than a little disturbing. Who knew Kirk, Scotty and McCoy belong to a far-right party*?
    BTW, the part about 'No wars until he was attacked' is McCoy letting his fascist convictions blind him. As per Enterprise: "some claim that humanity rose up against Khan and his fellow "supermen," while others believe the Augments began to fight among themselves". Nobody knows exactly how the wars got started.
    Also, Khan was condemned to die for war crimes he committed, etc**.

    *Khan was substantially responsible for the death of 30 million people. Not far from Hitler with his 55 million deaths.
    The part about Kirk, Scotty and McCoy belonging to a far-right party is not a hyperbola, but fully proven.
    **http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Eugenics_Wars
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2013
  14. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I quite like the idea of it being Soran.

    Personally, I found John Harrison, a man of mysterious origins, superior intellect, who had access to some pretty advanced technology to be a far more interesting prospect as a villain for the film, rather than Khan. It could have allowed for some far more interesting story-telling as to what Harrison's motives were (for a man from a race who've left behind all the pettiness and greed of our generation) and what his ultimate goal was.

    You know, something original.
     
  15. Cinema Geekly

    Cinema Geekly Commander Red Shirt

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    Amazing that even TOS Khan has fooled so many fans. Khan was definitely a savage, he is ultimately governed by his rage. How is he defeated over and over when for all reason he should not? Because he can't control that superior temper, this is why he makes mistakes, Kirk goads him and he blindly falls for it.

    Everything out of his mouth is masterfully crafted to get you to do whatever he wants. Sure that is how he would prefer it, but all the good guys eventually figure out that he is selling them a load of BS.

    Every time Khan says he loves his 'family' or that he would spare your crew, or treat you well, he is simply playing you, and when you figure that out and the superior mind is fooled he losses it.
     
  16. Khan444

    Khan444 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Yeah, Khan was so "sophisticated" when his blind rage and quest for vengeance caused him to torture, murder, maim, and destroy everything standing between himself and Kirk, or at least try to. It was really "classy" when he fell for one of the most obvious "I'm baiting you, this is a trap" scenarios in movie history and got himself and all of his people killed because he just wouldn't listen to reason. Khan was always a savage. An intelligent savage, but a savage nonetheless.
     
  17. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    Yeah. It's like that last exchange in the episode was written solely for the purpose to fool us.

    Spock: It would be interesting, Captain, to return to that world in a hundred years and to learn what crop has sprung from the seed you planted today.
    Kirk: Yes, Mister Spock, it would indeed.

    Why have something interesting like that when we can just settle with a Khan who just wants to murder everyone?
     
  18. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Jeyl
    The writers of 'space seed' did try to make Khan look good in several scenes - like the one you quoted in your previous post - which transforms Kirk&co into far right sympathisers - and the one you just quoted.
    The writers overreached - said turning of Kirk&co into far right sympathisers.

    Khan was a dictator - he conquered hundreds of millions, at least; the wars to end his oppression cost tens of millions of lives; he was a war criminal. In 'space seed', all he did was try to take over the ship of the people who rescued him - by any means necessary, including killing them.
    Having a slick tongue does not make one any less of a savage.
    In 'the wrath of khan', enterprise, etc. this is more than confirmed.
     
  19. Sindatur

    Sindatur Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yea, you're no less a savage because you give people a chance to bow down before you and submit to being a subject of your tyranny, then you are to murder and torture those who won't bow down and submit (Because it's quite plain the people will be subjected to one of those options)
     
  20. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Guys completely misinterpreted what I was saying. Khan would never consider himself a savage. Just like Hitler wouldn't consider himself a monster.

    You are discussing the outside view. But Khan was talking about himself, and that was out of character. "I am better at everything"-talk. Khan. All that talk about his savagery and 23rd century people not being able to break bone. Not Khan.
     

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