My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Dale Sams, Jan 7, 2013.

  1. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    in what sense does the PD apply? They are not pre-warp, pre-contact, or even native to that planet. Dougherty openly says that it's not a PD issue.

    Moreover, even if it WAS a PD issue, then nothing would prevent the Son'a from coming in and removing the Baku, and Picard would be in violation for interfering in a "blood feud."


    You can't have it both ways.
     
  2. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Except Starfleet actions were not a clear violation.

    Only Picard assumed the Baku were pre-warp. The Council knew they weren't. The Admiral knew they weren't. The Sona (obviously) l knew they weren't.

    Okay, remove the Baku to another planet, harvest the rings, and let the Baku and Sona have their little family tiff.

    I've seen (on the news) the police remove homeless from condemned builds that were to be destroyed. This was done for the safety of the homeless. Similarly, people in the path of a of a wild driven forest fire (we get a fair number of them) be force by public safety decrees to evacuate their homes, again for their safety.

    If they are originally from the world, this is very different that if they simply migrated there.

    When does it become wrong to not remove a group of migrants who would be harmed if they remained where they were?

    When does it become wrong to not provide a important health resource to hundreds of billions of your people, in orbit of one of your planets, just because a group of 600 are living in a single valley on you planet?

    :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2013
  3. Robert Maxwell

    Robert Maxwell Comfortably Numb Premium Member

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    Your argument is essentially that "might makes right." The planet is in Federation space, the Ba'ku can't do anything to stop from being relocated, so the Federation can just do whatever they want with those people, even though the Ba'ku settled that planet before the Federation existed, and have no reason to respect the Federation's jurisdiction or authority. Whether they evolved on that planet is totally irrelevant. Just because a people migrated from one place to another doesn't mean they have no claim to the land they've settled, especially if they settled it well before anyone else did.

    Essentially, the Federation is supposed to hold the sovereignty of individuals and cultures in the highest esteem, but is willing to throw that out the window on a raft of technicalities to get something it wants.

    As others have said, the TNG-era Prime Directive does apply in the sense of not interfering in non-Federation cultures without their consent.

    Had the So'na shown up and started ransacking the place or even massacring the Ba'ku, the Federation would have had a justification for a humanitarian intervention, but getting involved with the whole "Fountain of Youth" business is not something they should have ever entertained as long as the planet was populated, or at least until the Ba'ku opened negotiations on the matter themselves.

    Displacing people who've done nothing wrong, who aren't even under the jurisdiction of your government, and saying it's for the "greater good" is quite unseemly.
     
  4. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    To a degree it always has. You have to be able to defend your way of life to some degree or else eventually you'll be overrun.

    You still have to make common sense decisions about what's good for everyone in the long run. I can very easily see the Federation be put in a position where they have to defend the fountain of youth planet from other powers once the information gets out or another power simply coming in under the cover of a cloaking device and extracting the radiation.

    This is simple bullshit. You can't claim non-interference and then decide to put yourself in the middle of a blood feud because it may be resolved in a way you find distasteful.

    The "greater good" covers more than just the Federation extracting the radiation, it also includes not losing Starfleet lives defending six hundred pacifists from inevitable poachers and it ensures the Ba'ku civilization goes on by moving that civilization to another world because they are incapable of defending themselves from inevitable poachers.
     
  5. Robert Maxwell

    Robert Maxwell Comfortably Numb Premium Member

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    What existential threat was the Federation facing that necessitated relocating the Ba'ku?

    Except you're saying the Federation could make the Ba'ku's wishes subordinate to everyone else's, when the Federation's claim to doing anything with that planet remains quite dubious.

    Non-interference is the rule unless and until someone asks for help. If the Ba'ku sent out a general distress call while being attacked or forcibly moved by the So'na, the Federation would have more than adequate justification to intervene.

    That's why the Federation shouldn't have been involved whatsoever unless and until the Ba'ku asked for help repelling the So'na, at which point it's a humanitarian issue. Even then, the Feds have no claim to the metaphasic radiation. They would have to negotiate with the Ba'ku for it, since the Ba'ku were there first.
     
  6. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    The Federation Council would seem to disagree after refusing to get involved in the Klingon Civil War until outside influence was found.

    Since they're the same race and are fighting over resources, I can't see the Prime Directive being interpreted as anything other than "the Ba'ku are on their own".

    I'll have to hit the other points later as its a pain to edit on the ipad. :techman:
     
  7. Robert Maxwell

    Robert Maxwell Comfortably Numb Premium Member

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    Them being the same race was not generally known outside the So'na and the Ba'ku. I doubt the Ba'ku would mention that little detail when calling for help. By the time the Federation figured it out, the Ba'ku would probably be safe. :p

    It could also be argued that, while the same species, the So'na became a politically distinct entity, which makes their return akin to a hostile invasion rather than a civil war/blood feud.

    The Federation didn't get involved in the Klingon Civil War because it was primarily an issue of political succession--clearly not something the Feds had any business meddling with. If the So'na showed up to outright slaughter the Ba'ku, that's a totally different kettle of fish, and the Feds would be right to help when asked. If the PD says the Feds can't intervene in such a situation, it's incredibly inhumane.
     
  8. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    Why? If Starfleet has admitted to allowing worlds/civilizations to fall under the auspices of the Prime Directive why provide an exception for the Ba'ku?

    Plus, a distress signal from the Ba'ku would seem unlikely. They didn't seem to have any usable technology and they would have to get outside of the Briar Patch for the signal to even reach anyone.
     
  9. Robert Maxwell

    Robert Maxwell Comfortably Numb Premium Member

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    It's been well-established that when people ask for help, the PD doesn't apply.

    If the Ba'ku never got a distress call out to anyone, of course, it's a moot point. :p
     
  10. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    The legitimate Klingon government asked for help and the Federation said no.

    From The Last Outpost...

    DATA: They should add that Starfleet has permitted several civilisations to fall. We have at times allowed the strong and violent to overcome the weak.
     
  11. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

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    They'd never have to. Any Federation influence aside, Starfleet isn't going to allow a collaborator of its enemy to loiter in an part of space it perceives as its own, no matter how remote or hostile an area it is.
     
  12. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    How would Starfleet even know? It's unlikely sensors would be powerful enough to penetrate the Briar Patch from the outside.

    The S'ona really screwed up. They should've came in, scooped up the Ba'ku, collected the radiation and left. Starfleet would've likely been none the wiser.
     
  13. Robert Maxwell

    Robert Maxwell Comfortably Numb Premium Member

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    There was no ongoing genocide or threat of such during the KCW. It was an internal conflict over political succession. You're acting like it's the same thing. It isn't.

    Assuming the Feds noticed, given the remoteness of the Briar Patch (and the fact that what goes on in it is not readable by outside sensors.)

    Methinks the Federation would be happy to smack around a known Dominion collaborator for picking on the inhabitants of a backwater planet in Federation territory, though! ;)
     
  14. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    Nor was there the threat of genocide to the Ba'ku. The S'ona were perfectly happy to scoop them up and move them until Picard got involved.

    The quarrel between the S'ona and Ba'ku ended up being about resources, nothing more.
     
  15. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

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    Well, I always assumed it's how they pinged Dougherty's radar in the first place. He comes over and tells the S'ona to get off his lawn, and they turn around and bribe him with absolute power. Let the cabal begin.
     
  16. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    Or they simply sent an envoy to the Federation Council...
     
  17. Robert Maxwell

    Robert Maxwell Comfortably Numb Premium Member

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    That was with Federation involvement and help. I don't think it's safe to assume the So'na would have behaved so "civilly" if they believed they were free to act with impunity. Involving the Federation was a calculated risk to avoid an accidental conflict with the Feds while achieving the same result--and it would have worked, if not for Data's unexpected "malfunction."

    Ru'afo clearly had revenge on his mind. Without a Starfleet presence to temper his behavior, I don't see what would've stopped him from simply bombing the Ba'ku village into oblivion, or just starting the metaphasic harvesting process without giving a damn about the Ba'ku. The Feds provided the holoship, after all. The So'na didn't seem to have any other accommodations in mind for the Ba'ku, except (apparently) a makeshift brig/cargo bay.
     
  18. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    Then why even attempt to recover the Ba'ku with transporter tags? If they'd skipped that step, then they would have launched the collector and harvested the radiation...

    At the end of the day, its a movie that really makes little sense. Definitely had too many cooks in the kitchen and a weak director who didn't have the balls to ask for a rewrite.
     
  19. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

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    The collector itself is proof enough of that. It wreaks of being one of those overly spiteful doomsday weapons mustache-twirlers are so found of. What good is revenge if it can't be poetic?

    The "it's the only way" excuse has always been a hard pill to swallow and seemed a plot convenience at best. This is the Star Trek where the magical aptitude exceeds the combined wizardry of Gandalf, Dumbledore, and Gene Simmons ten-fold.

    It makes and breaks planets on a whim. Surely, extracting some uber fairy dust from planetary rings should be child's play.
     
  20. Robert Maxwell

    Robert Maxwell Comfortably Numb Premium Member

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    That's what I'm saying. The only reason the So'na involved the Federation at all was because Ru'afo thought that would mitigate any risk of an armed confrontation with them. It's not like he worried about the Ba'ku putting up a fight, since he could just start the harvester and not even care what happened to them.

    The main thing that makes no sense is the Federation stepping into this situation at all. The Council should've told Ru'afo and his thugs to fuck off and not be caught anywhere near the Briar Patch, lest a Federation task force forcibly "remove" them. What we got instead was a Federation Council apparently dazzled by promises of immortality sold by one of the slimiest characters (figuratively and literally) ever put to film. It also involves a pretext in which the Federation deliberately violates the Prime Directive in order to benefit Federation citizens, which is one of the things the PD is specifically supposed to prevent.

    So, yeah, it doesn't make much sense at all. :p
     

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