My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Dale Sams, Jan 7, 2013.

  1. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

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    Really, all they had to do was make the Baku human. They could have just as easily been an early human settlement like those in "Up the Long Ladder" (Hell, make them actual Amish.) and suddenly, even with everything else as is, it becomes a substantially stronger film.
     
  2. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    No. All they had to do was use The Dominion. The film could've benefited tremendously from a better villain. No matter how you frame it no one is threatened or cares about baddies who have an addiction to plastic surgery. Make the film a race for resources between the Dominion and Starfleet, with the 600 Ba'ku on the planet caught in the crossfire between these two colossal powers. It would make the Ba'ku more sympathetic than just being white, pretty hippy people who hate technology, and potentially add depth to why the Ba'ku rejected it. Have the planet and the rings decimated by the literal warzone the planet had become by the end of the film, and have the Ba'ku forced to relocate because their paradise was lost. That's the film INS should've been. It wouldn't have been the poetic, noble and heroic ending of GEN or FC, but it would've stood out among the TNG films and be remembered for having the bawls to do something that different and extreme.
     
  3. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

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    The Dominion don't belong in a TNG film. Try again.
     
  4. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    I guess the Dominion don't belong on Voyager training simulations for shuttle pilots also. See VOY episode Parturition in season 2. DS9 doesn't have a monoploy on the Dominion ya know. Try again.
     
  5. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    It would be nice to see Picard do the exact opposite of what Sisko does in "The Pale Moonlight"

    But I am completly at a loss to think of any race in ST history* that makes the viewer go, "Are you stupid Picard? Do you know how valuable it would be to have (X) as your allies in the war?"

    *That isn't already involved. The Ferengi have too much baggage, the Tholians are too alien. The Gorn are too alien.I dunno.
     
  6. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    We see from FC and NEM that the new Sovereign class can give and take with the some of the fiercest ships in the galaxy. Borg cubes and Scimitar dreadnoughts. Seeing the ENT-E fight an uphill battle against a fleet of Jem'Hadar ships would've been epic to see on the big screen. Lest we not forget the DS9 season 7 episode Penumbra where Weyoun name drops the Son'a, and they were directed to protect a Ketracel White facility. Riker in INS said the Son'a were known manufacturers of the narcotic enzyme. Since the Son'a were apart of the Dominion, why not use the A guard (Jem'Hadar, Vorta, and Changelings) against the ENT-E for a movie? INS seems so phoned in when you think of what could've been.
     
  7. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The producers were deadset against making a 'war movie'. I simply don't see how to make the Dominion the main villains without bringing all that baggage.
     
  8. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Opening crawls worked for the first episodes of DS9 and VOY, I could have handled a brief expository into to INS if the "trade-off" was a story that felt more relevant to the larger Trekverse as it existed at the time.
     
  9. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    ^ Fellowship of the Ring and An Unexpected Journey both had about 7-9 minute film openings that described the backstory of each film's plot and to set things up for the audience. This could've been done for INS. Not much to tell with the Dominion. They did it for the Borg however briefly in FC.

    Here is my abridged version of the Dominion conflict monologue
    1. Have Picard talking about the principles of the Federation and how they've always been a space exploration society built on peace and unity.

    2. As they explored further and further in to the galaxy they discovered a race (changelings) who felt threatened by the Fed. Have Picard say that the Fed always tries to seek a diplomatic solution over conflict, but circumstances at the time didn't allow and first contact was made on the battlefield with casualties for the Fed (DS9 season 2).

    3.Touch on how a dialogue was opened with the Dominion (DS9 season 3) but they remained resolute in their ways and the only way they (the Founders) saw forward was the complete subjugation of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants.

    4. Rightly ignore the parts about the Klingon-Fed war from DS9 season 4 and 5, ignore the Coup d'├ętat from DS9 Homefront and Paradise Lost but not the Changeling infiltration part, and ignore the Maqui bullshit.

    5. With diplomatic talks a failure, open warfare between the two super powers broke out. With the Dominion as conquerors and the Fed as reluctant opponents fighting for truth, justice and the Roddenberry way!

    6. Remark that the war as been going on for nearly 2 years and at present the war has no foreseeable end. Set this all to a montage of scenes with music.

    The conflict between the Dominion and the Fed really isn't that deep. It could've been done like I briefly outlined. Think of all the Vietnam, WWI, WWII, Civil, and Revolutionary war films there are. Not every single one of them outlines the details that led to open conflict, but they end up being good movies, and audiences like them. Exposition and montage about why the Dominion War is happening wouldn't be lost on the audience if it was done with some style and before the film.

    Looking at DS9 for episodes that you would need to gleam info from for a short synopsis of the Dominion conflict would be

    Season 2

    Jem'Hadar

    Season 3

    The Search 1-2

    Season 4

    Homefront and Paradise Lost for the Changeling infiltration parts

    The Quickening to show how ruthless the Dominion can be with biological warfare

    Season 5

    In Purgatory's Shadow

    By Inferno's Light

    Season 6

    A Time to Stand

    Rocks and Shoals

    Favor the Bold

    Sacrifice of Angels

    Season 7

    The Siege of AR-558 (only if for the desperation of the cause and how it's effecting members of the Starfleet) The air date is close to INS release date so it might not fit.

    So yeah for a general audience that has no idea about the who's who and what's what in Star Trek, a brief summation of the important Dominion aspects of these episodes in a 7-10 minute preamble and or montage to the film could have worked.


    Like my early post, I suggested we kept the Ba'ku in the film as the indigenous people of the planet and have them caught in the crossfire of the Dominion and Feds war. The audience would see the Dominion as antagonists regardless and the TNG crew wouldn't be able to hold their heads up high over what the conflict had cost the innocent lives of the Ba'ku. The only certainty for the TNG crew would be the war goes on. Leaving behind a trail of lost lives, including the TNG crews on. A metaphor for the life they had on the show and the life they live now as combatants.
     
  10. lurok

    lurok Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Here's some of it which will give you a taster :) Pts 1 & 2 seem to be missing though...

    [yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4jyaRJfr7A&list=PL28CE3F0096111BD6[/yt]
     
  11. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It is one of the worst movies I've ever seen and the bottom of the Trek barrel. It is a prime example of what happens when you bow to star demands and have to many people involved in the writing process.
     
  12. marksound

    marksound Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    So Plan 9 From Outer Space is better? :lol:
     
  13. Lance

    Lance Commodore Commodore

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    While I can see the obvious benefits for including the Dominion in INS, I can also agree with The Powers That Be in their reasoning that the audience shouldn't be expected to know the ins and outs of what's going on in DS9 in order to follow the plot (I seem to recall this was Berman's reasoning -- that there might be casual TNG viewers who hadn't emigrated to the spin-offs and who therefore wanted a "clean" Next Gen film without any of the mythological baggage that had been built up in DS9 and VOY).

    On the other hand, the way I understand it Michael Piller's first thought seems to have been not to include the Dominion as such, but simply to pepper the plot with hints of the ongoing story arc. So the events of the film would use the Dominion war as a backdrop, without necessarily being 'about' the Dominion war. Hints of this do carry through to the final product, but in a vastly watered-down form.

    I like the idea that a scrolling 'recap' might have worked as a compromise between maintaining consistency with DS9/VOY, and still being accessible enough to the casuals in the audience...
     
  14. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    "(Appropriate amount of time) ago, the United Federation of Planets made first contact with the Dominion, a hostile power. For (appropriate length of time), the Federation and Dominion have been at war, with the Federation suffering (appropriate number) of casualties. The starship Enterprise, under the command of Jean-Luc Picard, was recalled from the front lines one week ago to engage in a top-secret mission that could determine the course of the war."

    ...or some such thing.

    Heck, not to rip off "Emissary", but it would have been "cool" if the movie had immediately launched into the Enterprise in the midst of a battle with Dominion ships.

    Oh well.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2013
  15. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    thanks for that little taste. It does seem funny, but I hope that other parts of it are a little more substantive as far as analyzing the film, the choices made, etc.?
     
  16. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Having read Piller's book now, I want to thank everyone who suggested it and FOR MAKING ME FEEL BAD for not liking it.(Insurrection) Thannnnks a lot.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2013
  17. lurok

    lurok Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Substantive? Noooo. That's about the level of their analysis :lol:
     
  18. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    I have the Fade In pdf but haven't read it. Yes it's tragic that Piller died and can't really defend his work now. However seeing what he was writing on the first first 2 seasons of Voyager really does call in to question the quality of work he was putting out at the time of INS. While Piller remained a consultant on for Voyager in later season but you have to look at the two shows he launched. DS9 and VOY early seasons were less than stellar. DS9 was boring and VOY was so frustating i felt like punching a hole in my tv. When Piller left both Jeri Ryan, Brannon Braga took over VOY and it slowly became the show it ended up as. Im presently in season 5 and it's superior to the early seasons in many ways. Ira Steven Behr and Ron D. Moore were instrumental in shaping DS9 after season 2 to build up to it's signature recognized storyline, the Dominion War. Piller is great for all he did for Trek but the man did have some stinkers on his record. I read on Memory Alpha that even Ira Steven Behr found INS script weak.

    Strange how history remembers your faults over your triumphs .
     
  19. Australis

    Australis Writer Admiral

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    Yeah, I'm a fair way into it now, and, I dunno, I think they started with a dud premise (Heart of Darkness mixed with Fountain of Youth) and it never got better. Coming off the tremendous success of FC, it was a tough one to follow.

    I think they could have kept some of the same elements and made it a much tougher movie, and it would have worked better, but to a large extent that's Monday morning quarterbacking (I think that's the expression), and no point this late in the day.
     
  20. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    yeah, I'm with you on the dud premise. Really, I don't see a way that he could have made it work if this basic premise was the one he was determined to work around. I've written on previous threads on this movie that there was just no way for it to work. They should have told him to scrap the original idea and start over.