My Grievances of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by Mycroft Maxwell, Sep 22, 2013.

  1. grendelsbayne

    grendelsbayne Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

    I remember it being specifically mentioned in the film. Not sure exactly where, and transcripts don't seem to be available yet. Anyway, firing the torpedoes would pretty much be the death of khan's crew, either way, if not Khan himself.
     
  2. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

    :shrug:
     
  3. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

    I'm afraid that's incorrect. Marcus' plan of having Kirk fire the torpedoes at the Klingon world makes no sense if the torpedoes aren't really torpedoes. And we can see from Marcus' dialogue that he knew Khan's people were in them. It is also apparent that he didn't intend for Kirk to open one of them up. If the Enterprise tried to fire them and they just didn't fire, what then? How is Enterprise sitting in the NZ going "wha happen" intended to start a war? The torpedoes can be "turned into real torpedoes" simply by arming them, because they are real torpedoes.
     
  4. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

    If they were real, but unarmed, so be it. I don't remember anything in the film to contradict that. That's really consistent with what I said.

    But, I don't believe that Marcus knew Khan's people were in the torpedoes when he gave them to Kirk. I'm going to need someone to cite me chapter and verse from the film to back that up, and interpreting someone's facial reaction just isn't going to be enough to convince me of that.

    Khan tricked Marcus. Marcus thought he was giving Kirk fully armed, ready to fire torpedoes, but he wasn't. Marcus intended Kirk to fire them, and he thought they would work and start his war. He didn't count on Kirk disobeying orders, and he hadn't counted on Khan being up to his own tricks, either.
     
  5. UFO

    UFO Captain Captain

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    Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

    It would be interesting to see some quotes of this advocacy. I don't believe Pike supported Kirk becoming captain in either film, but I only saw STiD once. It would reduce my opinion of him if he did. Not that I believe he or Marcus should have been able to achieve that end, even if they had been irresponsible enough to have tried. Similarly didn't Marcus only get Kirk back into the captain's seat?

    Since Kirk is a loose canon, it doesn't seem like a good idea for Marcus to involve him in plan that required someone to follow orders (in a questionable situation).


    And I believe Khan didn't know the torpedoes were the ones containing his crew until Kirk told him how many he had (or some such). So not part of Khan's plan (he thought his crew were already dead anyway didn't he, hence his bad mood?) and it didn't seem to make sense from Marcus' POV either. :shrug:
     
  6. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

    Of course Khan wasn't certain what Marcus had given Kirk. Khan wasn't there when the Enterprise was armed.

    All Khan could do was light the fuse and hope that Marcus would unwittingly play along as Khan hoped. But when Khan heard how many torpedoes Kirk had, he knew what he hoped would happen had in fact occurred: he had managed to get his people smuggled out of Section 31.
     
  7. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

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    Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

    Pike said he gave Kirk the Enterprise and Marcus said Pike defended Kirk. So yeah, Pike was the guy that got Kirk the command.
     
  8. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

    Yeah, he did. We know that because he speaks of them being in there without Kirk or anyone else having told him that.

    I think I may have given the wrong impression when I used the term 'armed'. They were always 'armed' meaning ready to function as torpedoes. They weren't just things that looked like torpedoes.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2013
  9. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

    I don't think the torpedoes were armed, but I also don't think they were untraceable. Once the Enterprise launched the torpedoes, the Klingons would've spotted them and shot them down then went after the Enterprise. Which Marcus would claim had gone rogue.

    Plus, I think Marcus knew exactly where Khan went. Why else would he have allowed Enterprise crewmembers around the wreckage?

    Once Pike was dead, he was counting on Kirk going off half-cocked after Khan with revenge on his mind.
     
  10. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

    Once Marcus discovered that Khan's people were missing, you'd think he'd be able to figure out what had happened to them. The issue is whether Marcus intentionally gave Kirk possession of Khan's people. If Marcus had just wanted the superhumans dead, he could have just killed them, you know. Zap, they're dead.
     
  11. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

    The torpedoes were armed, that's how they were able to make them go off inside the Vengeance. They always had that capability.
     
  12. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

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    Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

    That's why I think the attack on Daystrom was part of the plan. 1) Gives Marcus more ammo, 2) Eliminates any stumbling blocks, like Pike.

    I see Marcus and Khan's relationship more a chess game. Khan was never 100% out of Marcu's control, he was being played; likewise, Marcus didn't have Khan 100% on a leash and had to improvise or adjust when Khan veered away from what Marcus predicts.
     
  13. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

    We really don't know that for sure. They could have easily put explosives where the cryo-tubes were. Even if they still had weapons payload, my scenario still works out. :techman:
     
  14. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

    Not sure I would exactly call if part of the plan, but something that Marcus knew could be coming.
     
  15. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

    Your timeline is off. According to Khan's story his plan was discovered before Kirk was sent on the mission.

    I really don't think that's what they meant by "armed the torpedoes".

    From the novelization:
    Earlier in the novelization ( this is Carol speaking ):
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2013
  16. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

    If Khan said it, then it must be true. :rolleyes:
     
  17. UFO

    UFO Captain Captain

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    Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

    My understanding is that Khan was going to use the torpedoes to smuggle his crew away from Marcus and co. A strange plan but "OK". I also understand that he had to leave town because Marcus found out about this. He believed Marcus would kill them out of hand, though I think Marcus would have had other uses for them than mere destruction. Although there would have been far better ways to do that. Ways that didn't involve the possibility of them being discovered by Kirk and co for example. No, the only "reason" they are used is so Khan will go along with Kirk peacefully and the plot can move on.

    Khan can have no expectation that Marcus would send any of them after him, even if Marcus didn't know what was in them. And how did no-one find them during routine checks before sending them out etc? Why would he use all of them? Why the embargo on Scotty examining them if Marcus didn't know what was in them? It's such crazy wishful thinking it doesn't qualify as a plan (or part of a plot for that matter).


    Well that's unfortunate (as well as being unlikely for such an organisation in my view).
     
  18. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

    Yeah, exposition has to rely on character dialogue sometimes, isn't it a bitch? If Marcus didn't know Khan's people were in the torpedoes when Kirk was sent out, what is the point of Khan lying about it? What difference does it make? Wouldn't it serve his purposes just as well to tell the truth there? I don't think it's a good idea to rewrite the character into someone who lies for no tangible purpose.
     
  19. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

    IIRC, when Khan was in the brig, he was telling Kirk and company things we knew to be lies. But I'll be happy to come back to this, once the script is online, or there's a good transcript, or I get the movie. :techman:
     
  20. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

    But for at least four years an awful lot of "Throw Wesley out the airlock" buttons were sold at conventions.

    My own theory/expectation, while watching the film that first time, was that an original plan by Section 31 was for Khan and his 72 followers, in torpedo tubes, to be softlanded on Q'onos and take over the whole planet, much like Kor and his men took over Organia in the original timeline.

    But unleashing 73 Eugenics supersoldiers might have been worse than waiting for Klingons to activate their attack on Earth, and Marcus came up with alternate plans.